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| 00:13.38 | nayasi | hei |
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| 03:55.58 | learner | hello mycr0ft |
| 03:56.16 | learner | mycr0ft, the getting started link on brlcad.org is the relevant portions of volume I |
| 03:56.34 | mycr0ft | ah OK thanks learner |
| 03:56.43 | learner | the rest of volume one involved distribution, license agreements, etc -- all invalidated by the open sourcing |
| 03:57.08 | mycr0ft | sweet |
| 03:57.47 | mycr0ft | OK I've downloaded everything and will be trying out BRLCAD right after I finish all my SBIR proposals. Sigh. |
| 03:57.56 | mycr0ft | Thanks |
| 03:58.11 | learner | sounds like fun (not) |
| 03:58.33 | learner | slipping some brl-cad improvements into the sbir? :) |
| 03:58.45 | learner | or leveraging the codebase ;) |
| 03:58.57 | learner | (it's been done before so I'm not exactly joking) |
| 03:59.21 | mycr0ft | Actually BRLCAD doesn't really enter into this round. |
| 03:59.47 | mycr0ft | I'm writing on MEMS projects and a Natural Language parser. |
| 03:59.49 | learner | mged's replacement is actually coming out of an sbir as will much of the windows support |
| 04:00.15 | learner | ahh, nlp is fun stuff |
| 04:00.17 | mycr0ft | I think getting SBIR support for OSS software would be a worthy goal |
| 04:00.51 | mycr0ft | Especially when it can benefit both the govt partner and the general community |
| 04:01.02 | learner | it would, though it's more support of an "old, stable, powerful military code" ... |
| 04:01.08 | learner | ... that happens to now be open source |
| 04:01.15 | learner | exactly |
| 04:01.30 | mycr0ft | unfortunately, the one problem with the SBIR program is the Commercialization aspect of it. |
| 04:01.55 | mycr0ft | And OSS software is a hard sell since you have to claim that you are selling support contracts |
| 04:02.02 | mycr0ft | or services |
| 04:02.20 | mycr0ft | At least that's what I got back in one review |
| 04:02.52 | learner | actually not that hard for a codebase like brl-cad |
| 04:03.10 | learner | brl-cad is just an underlying code used to some other means usually |
| 04:03.24 | mycr0ft | Yeah, that's true. |
| 04:03.46 | mycr0ft | The licensing on the BRL Code-base... is it more BSD or more GPL? |
| 04:04.07 | learner | it's like picking up libpng or some other library .. lots of facilities jump-starting the project |
| 04:04.33 | learner | different parts are under different license |
| 04:04.44 | learner | the binaries are under the gpl |
| 04:04.50 | learner | the libraries are under the lgpl |
| 04:05.01 | learner | the docs are under the gfdl |
| 04:05.23 | learner | the build system, support scripts, benchmark suite, regression test suite are all under the bsd license or in the public domain |
| 04:05.45 | mycr0ft | Thanks for the info. \n Well, I gotta sleep before I croak... I've got to finish 2 more SBIR proposals by Friday morning. |
| 04:05.53 | learner | good luck |
| 04:06.06 | mycr0ft | gl to you too. |
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| 04:53.04 | PrezKennedy | aint nothin like bein rejected cuz youre on a different "intelectual" level :-\ |
| 04:53.20 | PrezKennedy | me bein on the upper side no less |
| 05:19.29 | learner | heh |
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| 07:58.51 | learner | wb noyb |
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| 15:31.48 | brlcad | ahh, just missed him |
| 15:34.14 | EricWilhelm | brlcad, I think brlcad's sketcher is a little clunky |
| 15:34.20 | EricWilhelm | Is it just me? |
| 15:34.33 | brlcad | no, it's very clunky |
| 15:34.51 | brlcad | it was minimal support for a very limited task |
| 15:35.06 | EricWilhelm | what would it take to export the sketch geometry and let a drafting program edit it? |
| 15:35.30 | EricWilhelm | (e.g. like your mail client or browser launching an external program with a tempfile name) |
| 15:35.43 | brlcad | in general, brl-cad has had no funding for 2d-related geometries, anything related to drafting, CAM, etc |
| 15:36.38 | brlcad | i'd imagine that the easiest would be to add direct export support for the sketch primitive to the converter formats that can handle it (like g-dxf) |
| 15:36.43 | EricWilhelm | what about printing a hidden-line drawingL (as vectors, not raster/rendered) |
| 15:37.08 | EricWilhelm | but .g can't have simultaneous access, right? |
| 15:37.33 | EricWilhelm | s/drawingL/drawing?/ |
| 15:37.39 | brlcad | not from separate processes |
| 15:38.09 | EricWilhelm | can brlcad create a .g tempfile from a slice of the database? |
| 15:38.21 | EricWilhelm | and read any modifications back in? |
| 15:39.08 | EricWilhelm | that would make for a very hackable plugin architecture |
| 15:39.12 | brlcad | yes it can |
| 15:39.30 | brlcad | you can "keep" geometry and various was to read them back on |
| 15:41.47 | EricWilhelm | what code would I have to work with? The mged source? |
| 15:47.48 | EricWilhelm | (or is there a way to do it with scripts?) |
| 15:48.55 | brlcad | the code to "keep" subsets of a .g and reload them are available via the api and as simple mged commands .. so that part is pretty flexible |
| 15:49.32 | brlcad | the conversion of that geometry to another format via a converter would be the work involved |
| 15:50.15 | EricWilhelm | okay, say I want to replace the create->sketch menu item code. Does that have to be compiled-in? |
| 15:50.45 | brlcad | e.g. you keep all.g from moss.g to a file.. run g-dxf or g-iges on that file with sketch pritive support coded in .. edit somewhere else, then iges-g or dxf-g back and reload into .g |
| 15:51.13 | brlcad | ahh, to replace the sketch menu code is all tclscripting |
| 15:51.16 | brlcad | src/tclscripts |
| 15:51.20 | brlcad | mged |
| 15:52.20 | EricWilhelm | /usr/local/brlcad/tclscripts/mged/ ? |
| 15:54.33 | EricWilhelm | is this all in some developer documentation that I should be reading? |
| 15:55.32 | brlcad | yes.. that's where tclscripts gets installed to |
| 15:55.50 | brlcad | it's basically a direct copy from src/tclscripts to $prefix/tclscripts |
| 15:56.05 | brlcad | with a package index step in between |
| 15:56.40 | brlcad | There's the HACKING file at the top level for general documentation .. for code-level, what you find is what you get |
| 15:57.05 | brlcad | for the C library interfaces, there are manpages documentation |
| 15:58.12 | brlcad | e.g. brlman libfb |
| 15:58.51 | brlcad | Oh, and there's developer documentation from within mged on the help menu |
| 15:59.18 | brlcad | there's a broad set of developer commands not listed in the general command set |
| 16:04.05 | brlcad | and of course feel free to drop questions in here .. it's a lot of code to get to, but generally easy to follow one piece at a time |
| 16:10.16 | EricWilhelm | hmm. It sounds like it would only take a day or two to make qcad the sketcher. Am I kidding myself? |
| 16:13.25 | brlcad | ooh, very interesting idea |
| 16:14.47 | brlcad | actually that sounds fairly reasonable .. "hardest" part is going to be making sure that the converter is supporting the primitive in question |
| 16:15.11 | brlcad | and that's not really that hard .. just another case statement and a some writes |
| 16:17.51 | EricWilhelm | is there any "special" data in a sketch? (e.g. named entities or "the legbone's connected to the thighbone" type stuff) |
| 16:18.05 | EricWilhelm | or, would randomly ordered connected lines work? |
| 16:19.12 | brlcad | to be honest, I don't recall |
| 16:19.17 | EricWilhelm | E.G. in other sketchers (pro-e, catia, inventor), you have constraints to model geometry, etc that can't be represented in dxf. |
| 16:19.39 | brlcad | the geometry primitives as a datatype are defined in librt |
| 16:20.29 | brlcad | src/librt/g_sketch.c |
| 16:21.13 | brlcad | brl-cad does not have explicit constraints (yet), so it sounds pretty safe to assume randomly ordered is fine |
| 16:21.43 | brlcad | constraints are one of the funded todo items over the next year |
| 16:26.55 | EricWilhelm | <homer>hmm... funded (drool...)</homer> |
| 16:27.30 | EricWilhelm | how would a dumb cad program deal with constraints? |
| 16:27.34 | brlcad | so are a variety of other goodies |
| 16:27.51 | EricWilhelm | maybe with a constraint editor? (external to both brlcad and the cad program?) |
| 16:28.21 | EricWilhelm | e.g. it seems to me that the biggest problem with most sketchers is the inability to just throw-down some geometry |
| 16:28.27 | brlcad | well, dumb cad program is most likely only supporting dumb cad format |
| 16:28.42 | EricWilhelm | they all seem to want you to constrain it as you draw it |
| 16:28.58 | brlcad | uni and pro do, sure |
| 16:29.15 | EricWilhelm | maybe Draft could grow-up to be a constaint-based drafting program |
| 16:29.41 | brlcad | little colored light telling you if you are fully/partially/un-constrained was a pita |
| 16:29.56 | brlcad | but in the end, useful/good |
| 16:30.08 | brlcad | Draft is part of qcad? |
| 16:30.12 | brlcad | or something else |
| 16:30.35 | EricWilhelm | it certainly isn't trying to work with a dumb cad format (this is Bruno's cddf prototype (http://bugbear.blackfish.org.uk/~bruno/draft/) |
| 16:32.04 | brlcad | hrm, i'll have to take a look at that |
| 16:32.32 | brlcad | i'd imagine the dumb cad modeler will have to smarten up some ;) |
| 16:32.37 | EricWilhelm | of course, with a cddf (cad directory database format), you could have a drawing editor running next to a constraint editor |
| 16:33.23 | brlcad | i see it more as making your values complex types, expressions |
| 16:33.39 | brlcad | you need a consistent way to refer to other geometry |
| 16:33.50 | brlcad | and support for your basic math |
| 16:34.30 | EricWilhelm | rhizopod is the current uber-converter format, but doesn't have any facility for relational drafting, however it is probably the framework for the next level, which would be less static |
| 16:36.13 | brlcad | so instead of "radius == 3" .. it supports "radius == [box.corner.4.x * .3] |
| 16:36.16 | EricWilhelm | Right. When you get relational, the endpoints, radii, etc. have to be expressed as formulas or functions. |
| 16:36.17 | brlcad | or something |
| 16:36.44 | EricWilhelm | But, I think that the rhizopod format lays a groundwork for what could be an addressable version. |
| 16:37.25 | EricWilhelm | And, with persistent entity ID's, I'm not sure that the drafting program ever has to worry about the formulas. |
| 16:38.46 | EricWilhelm | e.g. if you can just scratch-out the geometry and then apply constraints in another program, the drafting program could just have a way to display constraints and lock values which cannot be modified directly (you can only change box.corner.4.x, not radius) |
| 16:40.39 | brlcad | that would be good, I'd imagine you'd conversely want to allow direct access/modification of those constraints for packages that do have good constraint management (unigraphics, for example) |
| 16:44.24 | EricWilhelm | right, but with the cddf (let's say that the step after rhizopod is medusa (a jellyfish (complicated enough to hurt you, but still relatively simple))) both programs (in the two-program version) would be using the same data (but the drafting app would just see read-only files where the geometry is dependent) |
| 16:44.51 | EricWilhelm | so, the independent geometry in the medusa format is identical to static geometry in the rhizopod format |
| 16:45.30 | EricWilhelm | therefore, a rhizopod drafting app can change any independent geometry, and a medusa-aware constraint editor can just handle constraints (but not draw anything) |
| 16:45.57 | EricWilhelm | ok, so if you add drafting to the constraint editor, you get an all-in-one program that is a medusa editor |
| 16:45.57 | brlcad | and something like brl-cad that understands both could do both :) |
| 16:46.06 | EricWilhelm | right |
| 16:46.43 | EricWilhelm | but does brlcad modify the sketch geometry or just use it? |
| 16:47.01 | EricWilhelm | since brlcad is a csg editor, that's a few steps past medusa |
| 16:48.26 | brlcad | it reads/writes it and uses it |
| 16:48.40 | brlcad | it's just the editing capabilities are primitive |
| 16:49.02 | EricWilhelm | okay, so maybe brlcad's editing is limited to exporting faces of existing solids or something? |
| 16:49.08 | brlcad | but once you have one, and it's extruded, it's just as fully useable as any of the other solids |
| 16:49.17 | brlcad | for intersection analyses etc |
| 16:49.24 | EricWilhelm | sort of an interactive g2rhizopod |
| 16:49.48 | EricWilhelm | create->sketch->from_solid |
| 16:50.17 | brlcad | hrm |
| 16:50.46 | EricWilhelm | s/g2rhizopod/g2medusa/ |
| 16:50.55 | brlcad | that would be interesting perhaps.. but right now the sketch (which is covered briefly in volume III or IV iirc) |
| 16:51.23 | brlcad | the sketch is just a basic collection of spline curves thatdescribe an enclosed space |
| 16:51.33 | brlcad | you extrude that space to form a useable solid object |
| 16:51.56 | brlcad | bbiab |
| 16:53.26 | EricWilhelm | I'll have to find some time and dig around a bit. Making a way to use an external drafting program for sketches would be my first step. That would give the uber-converter something to do (not that I have time or funding for the uber-converter right now...) |
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| 20:30.12 | PhantomBantam | Hello. |
| 20:30.58 | jano | howdy |
| 20:32.16 | PhantomBantam | Any idea when the mac binary will be posted? |
| 20:37.22 | jano | he'll know |
| 20:43.27 | PhantomBantam | Okay. |
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