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| 00:27.04 | setuid | ping |
| 00:28.02 | AchiestDragon | pong |
| 00:29.49 | AchiestDragon | :( hate server splits , got to wait for my text to speech to finish speaking about 200 nick join and part events |
| 00:35.20 | setuid | I'm putting BRL-CAD up as a case study for the Open Power project... wanted to ask some questions |
| 00:35.28 | setuid | Sean submitted it |
| 00:44.15 | AchiestDragon | need to speek to him about that , or one of the other devs here , thay sould be arround but sometimes its a while before thay check for new messages in irc |
| 00:48.16 | setuid | Ok, I'll just sort of reword his submission a little bit and submit it |
| 00:59.25 | ``Erik | ? |
| 01:01.24 | setuid | a'ight |
| 01:01.28 | AchiestDragon | well me just beeing a lowly beta tester for a part that isnt in cvs yet then i dont know too much about it |
| 01:01.42 | setuid | I'll throw something together, I can be eloquent.. |
| 01:02.18 | setuid | Hrm, I don't see mention of what the license is |
| 01:06.34 | AchiestDragon | it included in the source |
| 01:06.44 | setuid | So what is the license? |
| 01:06.56 | AchiestDragon | http://www.rafb.net/paste/results/wQ3Ph311.html |
| 01:07.47 | AchiestDragon | i pasted it ther for you , but that is what is included in the source distribution |
| 01:10.07 | setuid | Great, thanks... |
| 01:10.12 | setuid | Would be nice if that was clearly stated on the website |
| 01:10.30 | AchiestDragon | should pont out that link will only be valid for a few days , if you need a more perminent copy of the licence it is in the source or sean can send you one |
| 01:10.42 | setuid | Nope, just need to know so I can include that in the case study |
| 01:27.45 | setuid | Ok, how does this sound: |
| 01:28.56 | setuid | http://rafb.net/paste/results/RxEZ9L91.html |
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| 01:45.02 | AchiestDragon | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:49.16 | AchiestDragon | not shure if sean would want to high light some other developemts that are in the pipeline , like the new frontend "archer" and other work that is going on (that is not in cvs or the distribution as yet) |
| 05:52.52 | brlcad | setuid: howdy |
| 05:55.00 | brlcad | excellent, glad to hear it about going up as a case study and feel free to rewordsmith it -- could go into more detail as well, but I wasn't sure how much or little information was desired |
| 05:57.06 | brlcad | setuid: brl-cad is a rather large codebase with separate portions under separate licenses -- the COPYING file from the source distribution that AchiestDragon pasted starts out by saying "it's gpl" but in reality "portions are gpl, lgpl, gfdl/gpl, bsd, and public domain" |
| 05:57.57 | brlcad | the website doesn't mention this simply because that was a quick website that was posted when the package was first open sources less than a year ago, a more comprehensive and informative website is under development |
| 06:00.29 | brlcad | the legalities to fall fairly neatly into categories for the most part forunately -- the intent is to be as flexible as possible while encouraging contributions too only -- so the binaries are gpl, the libraries are lgpl, the documentation is selectably gfdl or gpl if it's not already public domain, the build system and support scripts are bsd or public domain depending on the script |
| 06:03.10 | brlcad | the fact that the libraries are not gpl, but lgpl is very important to most of our primary users (so I wouldn't just say it's gpl in the write-up) |
| 06:03.46 | brlcad | it's "over 20 years" in development (21 or 26 depending on when you start counting) |
| 06:07.52 | brlcad | setuid, I'd prefer not publishing that particular e-mail if you do submit it, there are others that would be better suited like morrison at brlcad dot org -- not a big issue either way, though. |
| 06:12.56 | brlcad | last thing I'd suggest changing is to say that BRL-CAD is Open Source software with portions covered by the GPL, LGPL, and BSD licenses. |
| 06:28.09 | setuid | I'm here |
| 06:28.24 | setuid | Was just putting a coat of paint on the livingroom |
| 06:29.11 | setuid | brlcad, What would be nice, is to have a 'What problem we had', 'What solutions we tried', 'Why we settled on POWER' or something like that... but I can forge up something like that. |
| 06:30.22 | brlcad | hmm |
| 06:31.10 | brlcad | that could be somewhat tricky -- the problem is more one of exposure and os/hardware combinations (which I think I went into somewhat in the original submission) |
| 06:32.00 | setuid | ok |
| 06:32.11 | brlcad | i actually have access to power4 and 5 machines, huge ones, but not any running debian -- the particular combination of debian on a 64 bit ppc showed some compilation issues that we were able to fix once exposed to the machine |
| 06:33.03 | setuid | *nod* |
| 06:33.08 | setuid | Did you try the Gentoo and SuSE ones? |
| 06:33.53 | brlcad | can't exactly say we "settled on power", although it is one of my personal favorite architectures if only by the beauty of the interprocess communication architecture and shared levels of cache memory |
| 06:34.14 | brlcad | bleh, inter-processor |
| 06:34.46 | setuid | Oh, don't let me twist your arm, I have no allegence per-se, but 'case studies' generally have the flow of 'problem, ideas, solution'. No need to box you into that model if it doesn't fit. |
| 06:37.17 | brlcad | yeah, i'm not so sure it fits in this case -- brl-cad has historically had a philosophy of compiling successfully on everything we can get our hands on, making for incredibly portable code that runs on some really old and isoteric hardware (think pre-tcp/ip, machines that aren't little or big endian, etc) |
| 06:38.19 | brlcad | and all the while, scaling up from single processor to vast multiprocessor architectures -- providing a good means to evaluate an smp architecture's scaling efficiency using real-world application metrics |
| 06:44.37 | setuid | Yep |
| 06:45.28 | brlcad | in this case, we were given the opportunity and access to build our code on a platform that we didn't presently have on hand -- this allowed us to resolve compilation issues on a conveniently fast machine and afforded the opportunity to test that platform's scalability performance (which is excellent and boils down to core business decisions for the military often) |
| 06:47.17 | setuid | I'll bubble this up into something coherent tomorrow... need sleep now =) |
| 06:47.20 | setuid | Thanks again |
| 06:47.38 | brlcad | now I can't make any official statements about ARL or the military, or their infrastructure business practices and how they relate to BRL-CAD with any great detail, but I can say that the BRL-CAD benchmark does give an excellent metric |
| 06:47.49 | brlcad | not a problem, thanks to you and your group |
| 06:47.59 | brlcad | the resource is great to have |
| 06:48.34 | brlcad | if I could install into system space, I'd be making our binary ppc linux releases off of it ;) |
| 06:49.13 | brlcad | cheers and g'night! |
| 06:50.38 | setuid | We might actually talk again about that... a BRL-CAD ppc64 build (rpm for SuSE 9/10 or RHEL 3/4) satisfies a request from another group internally |
| 07:03.02 | brlcad | I'd be more than happy to and of course interested as well, not to mention interested in what the internal group's BRL-CAD usage is as well |
| 07:05.24 | setuid | Its more of a way to promote it to other clients, partners, stuff like that. |
| 07:05.39 | setuid | Kind of a "See? BRL-CAD even ships with a ppc64-specific build..." |
| 07:15.55 | brlcad | i'm not sure i'm fully aware of the other machines (suse, rhel, gentoo that you've mentioned) being available too as part of the openpower project |
| 07:16.47 | brlcad | i'm only familiar with tick and the peking server |
| 07:17.12 | setuid | Portland is online, probably not advertised yet |
| 07:20.08 | brlcad | I'll have to keep an eye out for it then, thanks |
| 07:21.11 | brlcad | been nice chatting with you, nice to meet you -- feel free to e-mail me if you have any questions, or hang around or stop by here again too |
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| 10:14.44 | AchiestDragon | brlcad: was only going on the information in the included file re copying , if it is not the case then i think that file needs to be updated |
| 10:17.04 | AchiestDragon | before someone starts distributing the code in a distribution under a global gpl and failing to be aware of the multiple licensing of the individual parts |
| 10:18.30 | AchiestDragon | like sony for example :P (re DRM root kit including unlicensed use of gpl and lgpl code ) |
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| 12:18.55 | brlcad | AchiestDragon: no worries, you didn't do anything wrong -- if you keep reading that long file it states (hopefully very clearly) exactly what is meant |
| 12:20.31 | AchiestDragon | k, just that it needs a better explanation at the top , so it doesnt just get a quick scan of the first few paragraphs and a concusion drawn that its gpl from that |
| 12:21.23 | AchiestDragon | so that the point is made near the begining not at the end |
| 12:21.24 | brlcad | it just starts out saying gpl intentionally both as a catch-all to safeguard cases not carefully worded below where someone tries to take more liberty than was intended |
| 12:23.44 | brlcad | It probably does need a sentence more early on, but it can't go into too much detail without giving someone undue leeway about what applies to what |
| 12:23.46 | AchiestDragon | out of interest how much of the code is not gpl (lgpl) and has retrictions that could casues big problems if it was not able to be included in a gpl distribution , in that the program would not function |
| 12:24.55 | brlcad | if I understand your question correctly, none of brl-cad |
| 12:25.10 | AchiestDragon | with kttsd , and festival its a simalar case , in that |
| 12:25.34 | brlcad | gpl is the most restrictive getting more and more flexible with other parts that are lgpl, bsd, and public domain |
| 12:26.03 | brlcad | now there are several packages that use brl-cad's libraries |
| 12:26.11 | AchiestDragon | festival has to be downloaded seperatly , and if you need mobrola voices you need a seperate download for that , and nether can be distributed as part of kde |
| 12:26.16 | brlcad | that amounts to a LOT of code, but is not brl-cad |
| 12:27.00 | AchiestDragon | k |
| 12:29.23 | brlcad | the spirit of the licenses chosen was to encourage the community to contribute back to brl-cad when possible, but not limit use -- whatever that use may be even if commercial or private so long as we don't end up in a situation where someone forks, makes improvements, and doesn't return those changes to the community |
| 12:30.04 | AchiestDragon | just that i think maybe when some of the packagers get round to including it in distributions that thay may need the code to be grouped into gpl, lgpl .. etc so thay may include or not parts that there distribution licenseing will allow |
| 12:30.06 | brlcad | (public improvements, of course) |
| 12:30.19 | AchiestDragon | maybe why it is not already |
| 12:31.06 | brlcad | i don't think that is the case -- at worst the entire package can be treated as gpl |
| 12:31.08 | AchiestDragon | tend to aggree , and if writing code for a program i prefer to use the existing licence for that program |
| 12:31.47 | brlcad | exactly, gpl/lgpl were chosen for familiarity and usefulness, not to push the gnu/fsf agenda |
| 12:32.16 | brlcad | if we need to hand out tailored licenses, that is possible as well |
| 12:33.56 | brlcad | by the way, with regard to the packaging distributions, I've been in touch with most of them -- the only licensing issue that came up was with debian and their prohibition of the gfdl on documentation |
| 12:34.32 | brlcad | in which we accommodated, hence why the user gets to choose whether they want gfdl or gpl on documentation if it's not public domain already |
| 12:34.48 | AchiestDragon | k |
| 12:35.05 | brlcad | the delay has otherwise been rather technical related to entirely different installation methodologies/practices |
| 12:35.36 | brlcad | brl-cad has always used a private installation root given it's size and several conflicts that can occur |
| 12:36.38 | brlcad | several of our core libraries conflict with other common libraries so a lot of effort has been going into the build system to work around a centralized installation hierarchy to a distributed one |
| 12:37.14 | AchiestDragon | k |
| 12:38.27 | brlcad | an example, one of the core freebsd devs is a brl-cad dev as well but getting brl-cad into the frebsd ports packaging system has taken many months and still isn't fully integrated even now |
| 12:38.54 | AchiestDragon | think its one of the failing points of the difernt distros using diferent locations for some main components |
| 12:40.08 | brlcad | the biggest problem you run into is usually conflict resolution, especially if the conflict cannot practically be resolved |
| 12:40.27 | brlcad | brl-cad's core libraries for example, libbu, libbn, and librt |
| 12:41.00 | brlcad | those are libraries that have been around for over 20 years, there is a community of developers and users that have come to know them and expect their interfaces |
| 12:41.41 | brlcad | yet if I install any one of those three into /usr/lib on a given OS, there is a chance I will clobber someone else who has a library of the same name |
| 12:43.33 | brlcad | anyhow, the short skimmy of it all is that it means a lot more work has to go into configurable installation schemes for the packaging systmes that limits possibilities for naming collisions (which most package systems don't prevent in the least, but often provide means to try to limit them from happening if you go through hoops) |
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| 16:31.42 | ``Erik | myorp |
| 17:00.22 | CIA-12 | BRL-CAD: 03bob1961 07bobWinPort * 10brlcad/src/tclscripts/lib/TableView.tcl: Tweek updateVscroll method: put a catch around "after idle" command |
| 17:07.33 | CIA-12 | BRL-CAD: 03bob1961 07bobWinPort * 10brlcad/src/tclscripts/archer/Archer.tcl: Add exportVrml method |
| 17:12.45 | CIA-12 | BRL-CAD: 03bob1961 07bobWinPort * 10brlcad/src/tclscripts/archer/LoadArcherLibs.tcl: Fixed typo (i.e. errantly dereferenced a variable) |
| 17:14.22 | CIA-12 | BRL-CAD: 03bob1961 07bobWinPort * 10brlcad/src/tclscripts/archer/images/aboutArcher.png: Update to 0.7.1 |
| 17:25.08 | CIA-12 | BRL-CAD: 03bob1961 07bobWinPort * 10brlcad/src/tclscripts/swidgets/scripts/tree.itk: Check-in for Doug: Mods for multiple selection |
| 17:29.41 | CIA-12 | BRL-CAD: 03bob1961 07bobWinPort * 10brlcad/src/other/libtk/ (4 files in 3 dirs): Mods to silence the debug runtime checker |
| 17:32.36 | CIA-12 | BRL-CAD: 03bob1961 07bobWinPort * 10brlcad/src/other/tkimg/ (base/tkimg.c pngtcl/pngtcl.c zlibtcl/zlibtcl.c): Added seperate init routine for debug mode |
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| 17:36.01 | CIA-12 | BRL-CAD: 03bob1961 07bobWinPort * 10brlcad/src/libdm/dm-ogl_win.c: Fixed a line of code that was trashing the stack. Other minor mods. |
| 17:46.19 | CIA-12 | BRL-CAD: 03bob1961 07bobWinPort * 10brlcad/src/archer/plugins/Wizards/tankwizardIA/TankWizardIA.tcl: vectorAdd and vectorScale moved to tclscripts/archer/Wizard.tcl |
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| 17:53.25 | CIA-12 | BRL-CAD: 03bob1961 07bobWinPort * 10brlcad/misc/win32-msvc7/ (16 files in 16 dirs): Update debug version |
| 17:56.46 | CIA-12 | BRL-CAD: 03bob1961 07bobWinPort * 10brlcad/misc/win32-msvc7/dbupgrade/.cvsignore: Initial check-in |
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