irclog2html for #brlcad on 20051222

01:40.53 pra5ad yay! text renderer works
01:41.09 *** join/#brlcad maccam912 (n=470a7f52@bz.bzflag.bz)
01:41.19 maccam912 is anybody here? I have a question
01:41.44 maccam912 I will ask anyway
01:42.05 maccam912 I am running Windows XP and have finally figured out how to compile it and install with CYGWIN
01:42.15 maccam912 I am trying to start mged
01:42.43 maccam912 and when I click on it it said that it was looking for some .dll's so I copy pasted them from cygwin install folder
01:43.12 maccam912 they were all of the ones I was looking for, so I copy pasted them all from cygwin to the mged directory
01:44.11 maccam912 then when I click on it it says 'Initializing and backgrounding, please wait...' so I wait, then it closes without me doing anyting after a couple of seconds
01:44.34 maccam912 I installed it on linux, but It doesn't even open up on there
01:44.56 maccam912 it is 7.6.6 if that matters
01:45.04 maccam912 waiting for a reply...
01:53.33 *** join/#brlcad tegtmeye (n=tegtmeye@pool-70-17-225-27.balt.east.verizon.net)
01:55.03 maccam912 hey
01:55.10 maccam912 tegtmeye
01:55.34 maccam912 are you there tegtmeye
01:57.16 maccam912 ok, i have mged open, but when I try to do something
01:57.46 maccam912 it says "no database has been opened
01:57.49 maccam912 "
02:05.06 ``Erik heh
02:08.51 pra5ad what was the issue with a close-to-0 zNear plane?
02:11.39 ``Erik Z buffer is logarithmically scaled against the znear, so as you make the znear smaller, you lose z precision further out
02:11.45 ``Erik then you get overlap artifacts
02:12.24 ``Erik http://sjbaker.org/steve/omniv/love_your_z_buffer.html <-- steve baker wrote a bit on it
02:18.16 pra5ad so whats the work around
02:18.41 ``Erik you should probably read everything at http://sjbaker.org/steve/omniv/index.html , just think some and don't blindly believe everything he says... he knows his shit, but I disagree with him on a couple minor points :)
02:18.49 ``Erik the workaround is to put the z as far away as possible
02:19.19 ``Erik another workaround is to do multipass... draw everything with a znear of 1, then draw everything close (again) with a znear of .1 and a zfar of 1, or something
02:31.22 pra5ad these articles seem .. old
02:33.18 ``Erik some of 'em are a bit old, but little has changed, I think
02:41.17 pra5ad xenogears time
02:42.52 ``Erik http://sjbaker.org/humor/mkI_telephone.html *giggle*
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06:17.33 *** topic/#brlcad is http://brlcad.org/ || BRL-CAD is now Free Software! || 7.6.6 to be released by the 15th!
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06:24.56 CIA-6 BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * 10brlcad/TODO:
06:24.57 CIA-6 BRL-CAD: updates for the next two release iterations. for next release: start of windows
06:24.57 CIA-6 BRL-CAD: merging, mingw build, clone, tracker, geometry examples. for release after,
06:24.57 CIA-6 BRL-CAD: run-time path identification completion, autogen.sh, sf.net tracker scripts.
06:26.07 CIA-6 BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * 10brlcad/TODO: write .g in-memory transfer example (tegt needs)
06:32.37 CIA-6 BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * 10brlcad/src/rt/ (main.c opt.c): use 0.0 as the 'default' aspect ratio to represent unset. catch a negative aspect ratio as an error. a 'default'/unset aspect ratio will get adjusted to be the image dimensions ratio.
06:36.09 CIA-6 BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * 10brlcad/NEWS:
06:36.09 CIA-6 BRL-CAD: raytracers use image size for default aspect ratio now instead of just 1.0 so
06:36.09 CIA-6 BRL-CAD: that model space aspect is maintained and preferred over the image space aspect.
06:36.09 CIA-6 BRL-CAD: stops making the dang squished pics when you specify -n/-w options to any of the
06:36.09 CIA-6 BRL-CAD: raytracers
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06:48.44 CIA-6 BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * 10brlcad/TODO: use environ for run-time path tracing lookups
06:53.14 CIA-6 BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * 10brlcad/TODO: investigate performance impact of using sched_setaffinity and/or pthread_attr_setaffinity_np for linux threading affinity in librt
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16:35.57 clock_ hi
16:43.18 brlcad hey :)
16:47.38 clock_ I found out that free software project structure is identical to a structure of a gang
16:47.47 clock_ With the only exception, and that is evil polarity
16:48.14 clock_ fits really excellent
16:48.50 clock_ Actually not only free sw, but also User Controlled Technology
16:53.35 brlcad sounds about right
16:54.04 brlcad also known as and managed as a meritocracy in most cases
16:54.31 brlcad where merit is the driving force of who's in charge, who gets overthrown (stabbed, forked, whatever)
16:54.44 brlcad and the hierarchy of developers and contributors
16:59.39 CIA-6 BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * 10brlcad/src/librt/shoot.c: only test the debug flags extensively if something in run-time debug is enabled
17:00.27 clock_ merit driving force? Can you explain?
17:02.22 brlcad ~dict merit
17:02.55 brlcad you have a value as determined by your peers, others involved with the project
17:03.07 clock_ OK now I almost understand
17:03.08 brlcad the more and better work you do, the more merit you have
17:03.23 brlcad those with high merit are in charge
17:03.57 brlcad having history with a package or starting a package gets you high merit, which usually explains why original devs tend to stay in charge
17:04.21 brlcad but they can be overthrown or replaced if others do more and work harder/better
17:05.14 brlcad simple example, you already have more merit than an average person who enters the channel and asks for help
17:05.46 brlcad simply because you're already an existing user who has used the package, has expressed an interest, has contributed to the project, etc
17:07.30 brlcad it's not an artificially imposed structure like you working for a boss at work who might be an idiot. you are valued by your partipation, insight, contributions, etc
17:09.09 brlcad in most open source projects, you become a developer not by applying for the job/role of developer -- you become a developer by earning the respect of the other existing developers through useful contributions
17:09.26 clock_ that's what fascinates
17:09.27 clock_ me
17:10.19 clock_ skater also doesn't apply for a skater job, but has to skate and the better he skates, the bigger respect the others have.
17:10.41 brlcad yep
17:11.08 clock_ do you have gangs in the US?
17:11.21 brlcad and if/when he becomes good enough or better than others, people start listening, paying attention, respecting his wants and options
17:11.24 clock_ or where you live?
17:11.24 brlcad heh, of course
17:11.38 clock_ are they persistent and difficult to eradicate?
17:11.39 brlcad there are gangs everywhere
17:12.01 brlcad mostly inner-city in the big cities
17:12.27 brlcad young kids usually
17:12.38 clock_ almost invariably doing crime, right?
17:12.40 clock_ how young?
17:12.57 brlcad mostly teenagers
17:13.07 brlcad some are crime gangs, some aren't
17:13.23 clock_ who do those noncrime gangs do?
17:13.33 clock_ teenager=13 to 19 right?
17:13.43 brlcad yeah, pretty much
17:13.44 clock_ were z-boys gang as well?
17:13.56 brlcad i'm sure there are others outside that age range
17:14.14 clock_ toddlers with machine guns ;-)
17:15.00 clock_ have you ever been in any gang?
17:15.01 brlcad z-boys was a team
17:15.04 brlcad they competed
17:15.20 clock_ against other teams right?
17:15.21 brlcad but probably a fine line as to whether they behaved as a gang too
17:15.25 brlcad ~dict gang
17:16.17 brlcad lots of definitions (2 of 8)
17:16.25 brlcad merriam-webster's is better:
17:16.27 brlcad (1) : a group of persons working together (2) : a group of persons working to unlawful or antisocial ends; especially : a band of antisocial adolescents
17:16.57 brlcad 2: a group of persons having informal and usually close social relations
17:17.07 clock_ how can be adolescents antisocial?
17:17.27 brlcad so doesn't have to be illegal, just have to have be a close group of people
17:18.04 brlcad just frequently do engage in illegal activity sometimes
17:18.04 brlcad depends on the people
17:18.25 clock_ and otherwise drink and smoke weed
17:18.33 clock_ or what can "classical" gang do?
17:18.43 brlcad i would hope the don't drink week
17:18.45 clock_ chase girls
17:18.46 brlcad *weed
17:19.22 brlcad most adolescents chase mates :)
18:40.49 CIA-6 BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * 10brlcad/src/rt/do.c: make sure pixmap is null before wiping it out. instead of setting all the elements to zero, save cpu cycles and just request a bu_calloc...
18:56.35 CIA-6 BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * 10brlcad/src/rt/worker.c: (log message trimmed)
18:56.36 CIA-6 BRL-CAD: rewrite do_pixel() for a 30% performance enhancement on an model-less scene.
18:56.36 CIA-6 BRL-CAD: this results in a savings of 5-30% time depending on model complexity/size. the
18:56.36 CIA-6 BRL-CAD: performance is gained by removing some rediculous memory copying into
18:56.36 CIA-6 BRL-CAD: temporaries and optimizing away several divisions and modulos. the main loop is
18:56.36 CIA-6 BRL-CAD: also unrolled one iteration since the default case does not involve
18:56.38 CIA-6 BRL-CAD: hypersampling. also rework the logic on testing whether a pixmap (previous
19:04.44 Maloeran Have we met last friday, Sean? I didn't catch the name of everybody ( Alexis at Survice's place )
19:05.16 brlcad No, I couldn't make it over to SURVICE
19:05.48 Maloeran Ah, right
19:06.02 brlcad heard that you were there though
19:06.57 *** join/#brlcad pier (n=pier@151.56.213.59)
19:07.17 brlcad ciao pier
19:09.35 pier salve
19:09.52 pier how are you?
19:16.25 brlcad going good
19:24.27 pier I post a request this moning
19:24.30 pier http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1387937&group_id=105292&atid=640805
19:25.08 pier of course I am trying to get some result before asking for help
19:25.24 pier reading the source code
19:26.02 brlcad pier: yes, I read that
19:28.25 pier but I think I'll have to dig first in the header files to get an idea on how the various functions called in g-dxf code work
19:29.03 pier not easy but I'll have a go before giving up
19:32.15 brlcad it's not going to be trivial using g-dxf since it specifically generates 3D dxf files
19:34.29 brlcad if it's just a hidden line drawing you're looking for, it would probably be easier to modify rtedge to output splines
19:35.26 brlcad if it's a hidden line _image_ you're looking for, that's specifically what rtedge generates
19:35.49 pier not really
19:35.51 brlcad just without the ability to annotate as it's a raster image, not vector line drawing
19:36.48 brlcad have recently discussed that it'd be fairly easy to implement an rtannotate of sorts that could add annotations to an image and render as an overlay (or be an option to rtedge even)
19:38.01 brlcad the main problem is that the .g files are generally modeled using implicit geometric primitives
19:38.16 brlcad dxf only supports explicit geometric primitives
19:38.23 pier mmh I am going to have a look at the file format got from rtedge -o
19:40.01 brlcad so you have to either 1) convert to splines, 2) convert to triangles (which is what g-dxf does), or 3) write a research paper ;)
19:41.04 pier looks like rtedge -o produces a binary...
19:41.38 brlcad output is .pix file format (an image)
19:41.49 brlcad pix-png <image.pix > image.png
19:42.15 brlcad or rtedge -F/dev/Xl to display directly to a window
19:42.38 pier ok but it would be incredibly difficult to get lines and oder stuf from a pix file
19:42.48 brlcad at that point it would
19:42.56 brlcad but inside rtedge, not so difficult
19:43.26 pier go on
19:45.04 brlcad inside rtedge, it has the model that it's firing rays at
19:45.12 pier you mean I could workout a new routine studying rtedge source and make it to output a vector image file?
19:45.32 brlcad yes
19:45.47 brlcad it could be spline curves
19:45.51 brlcad or even something like svg
19:45.55 pier like in the old days commodor assembler games
19:46.32 pier projecting an image on a plane with a given normal vector
19:46.46 brlcad for a 2D dxf, it needs the outline curve of a primitive
19:47.15 brlcad you could also get this by performing 2D projections of the basic primitive shapes, but with CSG operations, this becomes very very non-trivial
19:47.46 pier yep
19:48.13 pier sorry for being slow in understanding
19:48.32 brlcad no problem, it's a common issue mainly stemming from implicit vs. explicit
19:50.04 brlcad iff the purpose is to get annotations/dimensions by using qcad
19:50.17 brlcad the main issue is "getting the object outlines"
19:51.02 pier for outlime you mean the lines that define the profile of the object?
19:51.07 pier outline
19:51.09 brlcad you could do this by performing a 3D projection of the triangles in g-dxf and computing inside/outside points, stitching together a spline
19:51.37 pier yes that was what I wanted to do
19:51.38 brlcad you could also do this in rtedge which has already formed the projection to 2D, requiring you to just stitch together a spline
19:52.03 brlcad right, the outlines define the profile
19:52.25 brlcad both/either approach could be made to work
19:53.20 brlcad gut feeling is that it'd be a fair bit easier in rtedge, though g-dxf might make more sense in the long run
19:54.12 pier say rtedge has a part in wich it makes all the "calculus" so what it is to modify is the piece of code that prepare the output
19:54.48 pier in order to make it write a dxf file rather than a pix file
19:55.02 brlcad right
19:55.26 pier then I'll switch to rtedge
19:55.40 pier and have a look at it
19:55.55 brlcad hey, might just give g-dxf a try first
19:56.15 brlcad that does "make more sense" as it is the exporter
19:56.47 brlcad it's just not clear to me even exactly how to proceed
19:56.48 pier now I am puzzled
19:57.51 brlcad you would not be able to reimport the 2D dxf back into brl-cad when you're done without adding 2D support to dxf-g
19:59.15 brlcad i'd say keep going the g-dxf route unless you hit a brick wall and get stuck -- if/when that happens, maybe switch to rtedge instead
19:59.15 pier but that issue doesn't iterest me now (and what's more would reeeeallyyyy beyond me)
19:59.54 brlcad more than happy to support you and help you understand what's going on in g-dxf and/or rtedge
20:00.12 brlcad both are pretty much contained to a single file for their entire main implementation
20:00.40 pier Lord! I am not a professional programmers and in that case I might turn in a thorn in your side
20:00.46 pier programmer
20:01.16 brlcad what we're working on is a means to add the annotations directly in brl-cad
20:01.37 brlcad first as a raster-only means via something that would be named like rtannotate
20:01.55 brlcad later as a fundamental capability where you can specify annotations and dimensions in the modeler
20:02.22 archivist swap later and first please
20:03.08 pier sounds scary
20:03.18 brlcad the first can be done in just a couple days
20:03.24 pier :)
20:03.50 brlcad the latter is a deep change and requires adding a new primitive type, modifying the .g format, and adding modeler interface improvements
20:04.39 pier I can't see how to make such thing (the first ex later)
20:05.04 pier perhaps
20:05.58 brlcad i.e. the latter is brl-cad 8.x material, it breaks compatibility to support it fully
20:05.59 pier adding a new method to the shape
20:06.34 brlcad that's a possibility
20:06.39 brlcad hmm
20:07.00 brlcad that's not a bad idea
20:07.37 brlcad could add explicit outline projection routines where you query a primitive from a particular direction and it performs the 2D projection to a given plane
20:07.39 pier a new primitive that could inherit all the legacy from the old ones
20:07.52 brlcad that could be done without breaking anything
20:08.18 pier and dimensions to
20:08.21 pier too
20:08.48 pier with hidden and visibility flag
20:08.54 brlcad the actual dimensions and annotations themselves are still not so trivial
20:09.03 brlcad they do require a new primitive
20:09.40 brlcad what I was talking about is something better than performing projections in g-dxf or trying to extract non-raster connectivity in rtedge
20:10.03 brlcad have to think about it some more
20:10.33 brlcad csg operations might make it impossible still
20:10.41 pier a primitive has its dimensions
20:10.58 pier radious for sph, vertex etc
20:11.32 brlcad sure, a sphere is fairly trivial
20:11.59 brlcad harder ones would be something like extracting an outline of a dsp (terrain) or even a torus rotated on an angle
20:12.39 pier once they are known one need a method to draw the dimension on the chosen plane
20:13.17 brlcad that was part of the idea of rtannotate
20:17.33 pier in the case of a torus you would need a plan view of it in any case if one want to put dimensions on it
20:20.23 pier funny... I can't see the pix image got with the rtedge fresa.g -o fresa.pix
20:22.14 brlcad pix is a first quadrant raw image format (old sgi standard)
20:22.27 brlcad you can read them with photoshop, or just use the brl-cad image tools
20:22.40 brlcad pix-fb -F/dev/Xl fresa.pix
20:23.09 brlcad plus your rtedge doesn't look right: rtedge -o fresa.pix fresa.g some_object
20:24.06 pier It is visible with pix-fb -F/dev/Xl fresa.pix
20:24.15 pier not with gimp
20:50.57 brlcad you have to rename it for gimp
20:51.09 brlcad rename it to .raw and gimp should be happy
20:51.16 brlcad it thinks .pix are something else
20:51.22 pier I'll try
20:52.01 brlcad it will be flipped, if you open in gimp/photoshop as it is stored as a 1st quadrant image, they assume 4th quadrant
20:52.31 pier get an error
20:53.07 brlcad what error?
20:53.18 pier unknown file type
20:53.19 brlcad there's no magic to it .. it's just a plain raw image :)
20:53.40 brlcad ah, I think you have to tell gimp that it's raw
20:53.58 brlcad there's a drop-down iirc
20:54.03 pier as a matter of fact I fancied that renaming would have been useless
20:54.21 brlcad photoshop insists it be named .raw
20:55.18 pier xv doesn't recognise it as well
20:55.31 pier neither image magic
20:55.38 brlcad heh, they will/can
20:55.44 pier weird
20:55.52 brlcad but you really have to go throught their means to specify it as raw
20:55.55 pier is my pc haunted?
20:55.56 brlcad which is not a common format
20:56.06 brlcad so it's usually a special option/selection
20:56.18 brlcad regardless.. if you want to see it, convert it to a different format
20:56.19 pier I'll open the gimp again
20:56.23 brlcad pix-[tab][tab]
20:56.48 brlcad pix-png being the most generally useful
20:57.23 brlcad pix-ppm useful for coding, latter versions of xv and gimp read it
21:08.49 pier ....... have to kill mged
21:09.04 pier it gets stuck after giving
21:09.27 pier rtedge -o fresa.pix fresa.g telaio.r
21:10.45 pier but not after
21:10.48 pier rtedge -o fresa.pix fresa.g
21:11.27 pier and
21:11.32 pier pix-png fresa.pix
21:11.59 pier gives a ot of rubbish on the screen and no png file
21:17.25 ``Erik pix-png fresa.pix > fresa.png
21:18.03 ``Erik rtfm o.O :)
21:19.28 pier ok
21:20.58 pier nice one!
21:21.31 pier even though the fresa (router) came with a foot cut into two parts
21:27.12 brlcad oh, rtedge inside of mged is different than outside, I gave syntax for outside mged
21:27.24 brlcad inside mged, you don't need to specify the geometry or the .g
21:27.30 brlcad it uses what's currently displayed
21:29.53 brlcad that "rubbish" is the png file data ;) so you have to redirect it
21:30.23 brlcad the command should have a check added to make sure output isn't a terminal like the other converters do, someone must have missed it
21:31.23 pier ok it works
21:31.44 CIA-6 BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * 10brlcad/TODO: pix-png should make sure output is not to a terminal
21:32.39 pier but does not accept -w -n parameter
21:32.48 brlcad what doesn't?
21:33.24 pier ~/brlcad/bin$ pix-png -w 1024 -n 768 fresa.pix > fresa.png
21:33.25 pier pix-png: Short read
21:33.41 brlcad short read, fresa.pix isn't 1024x768 apparently
21:33.53 brlcad default is 512x512
21:34.00 pier ok
21:34.03 brlcad you have to specify 1024x768 when you render
21:34.18 pier ok ok
21:35.00 brlcad rtedge -w 1024 -n 768 -V1024,768 -o ...
21:36.47 pier gas
21:36.52 pier ok
21:37.47 brlcad ?
21:38.02 pier as I am going to bed would you kindly address me to the source of rtedge to ease my sleep :)
21:38.13 pier I got lost in
21:38.46 pier brlcad-7.6.6.src.tar.gz/brlcad-7.6.6/src/rt
21:39.43 pier rtedge -w 1024 -n 768 -V1024,768 -o ... Was perfect
21:42.00 brlcad if you were still here, I would have said viewedge.c
21:42.03 *** join/#brlcad pier (n=pier@151.56.213.59)
21:42.06 brlcad heh
21:42.13 brlcad viewedge.c
21:43.03 brlcad all the raytracers basically just provide implementation for a set of callbacks
21:43.30 brlcad view.c is rt's, viewedge.c is rtedge's, vieweight.c is rtweights's etc etc
21:43.56 pier ok .. found
21:44.11 brlcad main.c and opt.c and most of the rest of files are common to all of them
21:44.35 brlcad rtsimple.c and rtexample.c give a tutorial on how they all work
21:44.47 brlcad with a relatively simple raytracer that just fires one ray
21:59.58 pier going to have a printout of rtexample.c and study it. May I be back with questions? Hope not though!
22:02.53 brlcad sure sure
22:03.05 brlcad it should compile outright, it's part of the build actually
22:03.23 brlcad viewedge.c is just the callbacks that are in rtexample.c
22:03.42 brlcad rtexample is a full program example
22:04.01 pier yes I see
22:04.47 pier Would gcc compile it?
22:04.50 brlcad sure
22:05.16 pier ....... an example perhaps...
22:05.54 brlcad [morrison@hole (Thu Dec 22 17:05:29) ~/brlcad/src/rt]$ gcc -L/usr/brlcad/lib -I/usr/brlcad/include -I/usr/brlcad/include/brlcad rtexample.c -o rtexample -lbu -lrt
22:05.56 brlcad [morrison@hole (Thu Dec 22 17:05:42) ~/brlcad/src/rt]$ ./rtexample
22:05.59 brlcad Usage: rtexample model.g objects...
22:07.44 pier Thanks a lot to you all. A merry Christmas. Good night!
22:08.15 brlcad same to you
22:09.53 *** part/#brlcad pier (n=pier@151.56.213.59)
22:12.35 *** join/#brlcad PrezKennedy (n=Apathy@pcp0011645240pcs.aberdn01.md.comcast.net)

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