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| 02:29.30 | bjorkBSD | oh. irix. |
| 02:29.40 | bjorkBSD | does brlcad work on irix? |
| 02:59.06 | IriX64 | brlcad works on anything :) |
| 02:59.45 | IriX64 | kids want thr rec room, bbiab. don't let them annoy you :) |
| 03:30.31 | IriX64 | oh bjorkBSD does brlcad work on BSD? |
| 03:32.07 | IriX64 | cd /usr/linuxbrlcad/bin |
| 03:32.13 | IriX64 | ermf. |
| 03:32.59 | IriX64 | haha.. ./mged ...doesnt work on irc tho bjorkBSD |
| 03:48.31 | brlcad | bjorkBSD: but of course it does, quite an extensive irix heritage |
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| 03:50.45 | IriX64 | heh |
| 03:50.50 | IriX64 | Frame 0: 476100 rays in 0.50 sec = 952200.00 rays/sec (RTFM) |
| 03:50.58 | IriX64 | does it run? |
| 03:51.51 | IriX64 | thats wave.g llview |
| 03:52.25 | IriX64 | munchies bbiab. |
| 03:55.02 | brlcad | that's starting to look more reasonable rtfm's |
| 04:25.05 | IriX64 | Frame 0: 643481 rays in 4.11 sec = 156564.72 rays/sec (RTFM) ==bldg391 |
| 04:25.44 | IriX64 | sigh bed time nytol :) |
| 04:29.19 | bjorkBSD | what do you guys use brlcad for? |
| 04:33.51 | fenn | brlcad was designed for simulating tanks shooting each other and getting blown up by nuclear bombs |
| 04:34.07 | bjorkBSD | ah okay. |
| 04:34.11 | bjorkBSD | is that what you use it for, fenn? |
| 04:34.13 | fenn | no |
| 04:34.33 | bjorkBSD | panzer simulations for the history channel :) |
| 04:34.35 | brlcad | heh, primarily for vulnerability and lethality analyses |
| 04:34.38 | brlcad | of all sorts |
| 04:34.48 | bjorkBSD | hmm i see. |
| 04:34.50 | fenn | i wanted a free/libre parametric solid modeler that ran on linux |
| 04:35.00 | fenn | for designing.. stuff |
| 04:35.05 | bjorkBSD | like what, fenn? |
| 04:35.12 | bjorkBSD | nosey, i know. |
| 04:35.12 | brlcad | modeling military assets, performing analysis and engineering studies on the models, comparing to real-world results |
| 04:35.27 | fenn | like robot parts, turbine engines, machine tools |
| 04:35.30 | bjorkBSD | hmmm. including the engines, brlcad? |
| 04:35.35 | brlcad | mm.. parametrics |
| 04:35.47 | brlcad | hope that have that integrated soon |
| 04:35.56 | bjorkBSD | i see i see. |
| 04:36.05 | bjorkBSD | so it compares with solidworks, right? |
| 04:36.12 | fenn | i saw that was in the database format (?) but there's no way to access it? |
| 04:36.40 | brlcad | bjorkBSD: only somewhat.. they are both inherintly solid modelers with a vast overlap of functionality |
| 04:37.09 | fenn | i've never used solidworks but i'm tempted to say "no" |
| 04:37.14 | brlcad | some things brl-cad does considerably better, lots solidworks does better (e.g. gui stuff) |
| 04:37.55 | brlcad | brl-cad's worst aspect at the current moment is the mged modeler, which most unfortunately equate as mged == brl-cad which is quite far from the truth |
| 04:38.03 | fenn | brlcad: do you keep odd hours or are you just always at your computer? or both? |
| 04:38.10 | brlcad | fenn: yes :) |
| 04:38.16 | fenn | me too :) |
| 04:38.26 | bjorkBSD | ah okay. |
| 04:38.35 | bjorkBSD | so you're saying the interface is a drawback? |
| 04:39.04 | fenn | especially for people who like to use the mouse |
| 04:39.58 | bjorkBSD | ah okay. |
| 04:40.06 | bjorkBSD | the interface ... hmm. |
| 04:40.16 | brlcad | bjorkBSD: the gui interface of mged is not what most people expect/want, though the command line and feature-wise it is quite powerful |
| 04:40.34 | brlcad | full vehicles are actually modeled with it, down to the nut bolt and wire |
| 04:40.41 | brlcad | inside and out |
| 04:40.44 | bjorkBSD | it occured to me on saturday at about when was it? 2:38 pm i think(?) that the manual/tutorials are part of a software's interface. |
| 04:41.06 | fenn | i wouldnt go that far |
| 04:41.43 | fenn | an interface can be self documenting, yes, but it doesnt mean the documentation is the interface |
| 04:41.47 | bjorkBSD | why not? it's an indirect interface. |
| 04:41.58 | brlcad | somethings that brl-cad does do better than most -- our raytracing of implicits and even explicits is better (faster, more accurate) that pretty much every other major CAD vendor |
| 04:42.25 | brlcad | we're also of course extensively cross-platform where most limit to one or a few |
| 04:42.54 | brlcad | not to mention the only OSI-open source production quality solid modeling system |
| 04:43.24 | fenn | i'm not sure i understand what "solid modeling" means anymore |
| 04:43.34 | fenn | since you can do csg with meshes in blender |
| 04:44.12 | brlcad | brl-cad "geometric engine" is pretty robust, forms the basis for at least a dozen analysis codes as their data management interface, geometric analysis, ray-tracing, shotlining, etc |
| 04:44.41 | brlcad | blender is far from a solid modeler |
| 04:44.48 | brlcad | you don't need CSG to be a solid modeler |
| 04:46.04 | brlcad | you need guaranteed surface topology, crack-free surface analysis, numerical stability, a solid concept and implementation of an object's interior and exterior (generally for some engineering or analysis purpose) |
| 04:46.08 | fenn | you do need solid modeling to do csg right? |
| 04:46.25 | brlcad | no, you don't |
| 04:46.57 | brlcad | CSG simply comes from set theory and can be applied to many domains (including arbitrary mesh topology) |
| 04:47.24 | bjorkBSD | uh oh. did you say set theory? :-S |
| 04:48.00 | fenn | bjorkBSD: this is one of the few major areas of applied math :) |
| 04:48.34 | bjorkBSD | set theory? |
| 04:48.38 | bjorkBSD | ye gads. |
| 04:48.40 | fenn | 3d modeling and simulation |
| 04:48.59 | bjorkBSD | oh. |
| 04:49.00 | bjorkBSD | <PROTECTED> |
| 04:50.21 | bjorkBSD | brlcad, what do you use it for? |
| 04:51.24 | brlcad | i'm a dev, I yearn to improve the package and implement features people want |
| 04:51.33 | bjorkBSD | oh okay. |
| 04:51.49 | bjorkBSD | it's written in C? |
| 04:51.52 | bjorkBSD | or c++? |
| 04:52.31 | brlcad | number one on that list is a new modeler that leverages some of the better aspects of mged, humane interface design, and just an overall better scalable software architecture |
| 04:52.45 | brlcad | the vast majority is C |
| 04:53.24 | brlcad | the new modeler is going to be in C++, though utilizing most of the existing C libraries in brl-cad (there are over a dozen) |
| 04:53.50 | bjorkBSD | c++? |
| 04:55.11 | brlcad | it's plugin based with a swappable scripting engine so that various interpreted languages can also be integrated (tcl, python, and bash for starters, maybe also lisp/scheme and perl) |
| 04:56.51 | bjorkBSD | sounds cool. |
| 04:57.13 | bjorkBSD | i wonder what an interface to a program like brl-cad should be like :-? |
| 04:59.34 | brlcad | brl-cad is a suite of programs and functionality for starters |
| 04:59.47 | brlcad | so any "interface program" needs to leverage that |
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| 13:56.14 | CIA-9 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * 10brlcad/src/util/dunncomm.c: tty.sg_* is not mixable with ioctl/termios so make it a #else |
| 14:10.49 | clock_ | brlcad: I got the idea that I could try making an official brlcad install package for openbsd. |
| 14:11.27 | brlcad | go for it |
| 14:12.14 | brlcad | there's no official openbsd maintainer, so that certainly could be you if you're up to it |
| 14:15.08 | clock_ | How much time from me would it require? |
| 14:21.40 | brlcad | heh |
| 14:21.58 | brlcad | how would I know that? |
| 14:23.52 | clock_ | so better not be official maintainer. I am already taken enough with Ronja. |
| 14:23.59 | brlcad | i wouldn't imagine very much once you built a couple release packages -- could even potentially automate the process |
| 14:26.39 | CIA-9 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * 10brlcad/configure.ac: add a header check for dslib.h and libds for SDL /dev/scsi library availability. src/canon needs it. |
| 14:32.49 | CIA-9 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * 10brlcad/src/canon/Makefile.am: add LIBDS to the link list, IRIX systems actually compile in functionality provided by that generic SCSI library |
| 14:35.30 | CIA-9 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * 10brlcad/src/canon/ (canon.h canonize.c ipuscan.c ipustat.c pix-ipu.c png-ipu.c): clean up the code to remove the #if IRIX junk and instead consistently use IPU_FULL_LIB which is declared by the canon.h interface header, and that define is set when dslib.h was detected by configure. |
| 14:46.17 | clock_ | brlcad: what does the word surfari mean? |
| 14:48.26 | brlcad | going on a surfing adventure |
| 14:49.14 | clock_ | Is it a noun or verb? |
| 14:50.19 | brlcad | a noun |
| 14:50.36 | brlcad | it's not a real word (at least not yet), but surfing vernacular afaik |
| 14:51.47 | clock_ | what does make surfing an adventure? |
| 14:52.26 | clock_ | isn't surfing by default considered an adventure? |
| 14:53.53 | *** join/#brlcad clock_ (n=clock@zux221-122-143.adsl.green.ch) | |
| 14:55.13 | brlcad | you know what a safari is, yes? |
| 14:55.34 | clock_ | yes you go between lions and zebras |
| 14:55.37 | brlcad | you go on a trip, an adventure, to see wildlife of some sort |
| 14:55.56 | brlcad | a surfari would be a similar trip to go around to various places and surf |
| 14:55.59 | clock_ | I thought safari is a zoo without the fences |
| 14:56.08 | clock_ | ah OK now I understand |
| 14:56.16 | clock_ | kinda Swedish table for surfers |
| 14:56.37 | clock_ | does it become boring on a single spot? |
| 14:56.56 | brlcad | for some probably |
| 14:57.27 | clock_ | have you ever been surfing? |
| 14:57.45 | brlcad | http://www.surfaricharters.com/ |
| 14:58.37 | brlcad | erhm, we talked about surfing just last summer.. yes i have :) |
| 14:58.37 | brlcad | you were asking about santa monica and boarding at the time |
| 14:59.44 | clock_ | brlcad: I don't puff I don't need to I get the effect even without puffing |
| 15:00.01 | clock_ | Yes I remember asking about santa monica |
| 15:00.20 | clock_ | and did you like it? |
| 15:01.40 | brlcad | i love surfing |
| 15:01.53 | brlcad | quite a thrill |
| 15:02.02 | clock_ | do you still go? |
| 15:02.12 | brlcad | when I get the chance |
| 15:02.24 | clock_ | where did you use to go? |
| 15:02.31 | brlcad | there's no surfing on the east coast, only when I travel out west to cali |
| 15:02.49 | clock_ | what attracts me the most that there's no solid object that would require a care |
| 15:03.20 | brlcad | hmm? |
| 15:03.29 | clock_ | like with skateboarding I have to stay sane |
| 15:03.39 | brlcad | you have to care for your board, that takes quite a lot of attention |
| 15:03.45 | clock_ | especially considering that I am carrying a laptop on my back, which is not mine but employers |
| 15:04.00 | clock_ | I mean no ground that could hit you |
| 15:04.12 | brlcad | heh |
| 15:04.40 | brlcad | having a 10 foot wave hit you is a lot like having the ground hit you |
| 15:04.43 | clock_ | I have to care about my skateboard too when the bearing stop running smoothly I disassemble them wash them out with meth and then reassemble and lubricate |
| 15:04.59 | brlcad | plus you get the trill of very possibly drowning each time :) |
| 15:05.19 | brlcad | thrill even |
| 15:05.53 | clock_ | that's the thrill you love on surfing? |
| 15:06.19 | brlcad | nah, it's more than that |
| 15:06.27 | clock_ | I guess it's possible to surf something smaller |
| 15:06.54 | clock_ | what's the minimum size for surfing? |
| 15:07.03 | brlcad | the sun, the surf, the waves, the hot ladies, the speed of riding in with a wave |
| 15:07.22 | brlcad | minimum size? |
| 15:07.30 | brlcad | well, there's hot guys for you ;) |
| 15:07.36 | clock_ | that's better :) |
| 15:07.49 | clock_ | what speed does the wave make? |
| 15:08.10 | brlcad | *shrug* |
| 15:08.16 | clock_ | 40mph? |
| 15:08.42 | brlcad | i doubt it, but I have no idea |
| 15:09.27 | clock_ | does the have have to be on a shallow bottom to be surfable? |
| 15:09.43 | brlcad | nope, you just need a wave |
| 15:10.28 | brlcad | you going surfing or something, what's the sudden curiosity? |
| 15:10.41 | clock_ | I don't know some crosstalk in my head |
| 15:11.23 | brlcad | so not puffing anything, but maybe that ground has hit you a little too hard on the noggin' a few too many times.. :) |
| 15:11.35 | clock_ | I would like to go surfing, if it didn't cost much and wasn't in some obscure country which is either dangerous or I don't understand their local speech |
| 15:12.06 | clock_ | I haven't fallen on the skateboard |
| 15:12.12 | clock_ | actually have but only 2 times |
| 15:12.27 | brlcad | a basic surf board doesn't cost a lot more than a really nice skateboard |
| 15:12.29 | clock_ | OK 3 times |
| 15:13.01 | brlcad | couple hundred bucks, less for a beginner board |
| 15:13.08 | clock_ | getting the board is trivial. The waves are much worse. |
| 15:13.26 | brlcad | yeah, you're not exactly close to waves :) |
| 15:13.49 | clock_ | I surf the sun waves but that's not exactly the same |
| 15:13.55 | brlcad | there ya go, http://www.surfaricharters.com/surfingnicaragua.htm |
| 15:14.41 | clock_ | http://ronja.twibright.com/drawings/sunwaves.png |
| 15:14.59 | clock_ | http://ronja.twibright.com/drawings/ronja_back.png |
| 15:15.25 | clock_ | I made a t-shirt. Fluorescent orange on dark blue. The wife of my boss said she needs sunglasses to view my t-shirt :) |
| 15:15.41 | clock_ | And the wave is taken from how the receiver output looks on osciloscope |
| 15:16.38 | brlcad | has ronja ever been /.'d? |
| 15:17.00 | clock_ | yes twice |
| 15:17.11 | brlcad | thought so, just wondering |
| 15:17.28 | clock_ | once directly once together with couple other projects |
| 15:17.41 | clock_ | hmm but nicarague that's far |
| 15:18.25 | clock_ | the question is how long it takes until I stop being unusable on the board |
| 15:19.04 | brlcad | once you get going with a wave, you can ride it all the way in to shore pretty easily |
| 15:20.05 | brlcad | usually hop off before you get to shore so you don't mess up the board or fin on sand/rocks |
| 15:20.17 | clock_ | My aunt has a windsurf and a house next to a lake and she lend it to me and my brother. |
| 15:20.42 | clock_ | Brother was trying to ride the contraption, but I removed the unnecessary unmasterable foily thing and enjoyed paddling |
| 15:21.46 | clock_ | cause we go to lunch to the lake and the normal shorts dry out too long :D |
| 15:22.09 | clock_ | is it big difference between normal surfboard and windsurf board? |
| 15:23.14 | brlcad | no idea, never been windsurfing |
| 15:24.06 | clock_ | I don't like the idea of windsurfing. Too complicated for me. Surfing has an elegance of simplicity |
| 15:24.16 | clock_ | Even simpler than a snowboard :) |
| 15:25.43 | clock_ | how long is it since you've been last time? |
| 15:27.41 | brlcad | last summery |
| 15:28.19 | clock_ | hehe :) |
| 15:28.28 | clock_ | california? |
| 15:28.34 | brlcad | yes |
| 15:29.13 | clock_ | I talked with someone from san diego and he said the water is dirty that he used to get sick from that |
| 15:29.21 | clock_ | is it really dirty? |
| 15:29.59 | brlcad | nah, people from san diego are just really picky |
| 15:30.08 | brlcad | *ahem* :) |
| 15:30.20 | ValarQ | yeah, right :) |
| 15:31.32 | CIA-9 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * 10brlcad/src/mged/ged.h: declare is_dm_null() and mged_link_vars() so callers don't have to |
| 15:31.33 | brlcad | last time I was in san diego, the ocean was really clean |
| 15:32.04 | brlcad | all up and down the coast for that matter.. beautiful water |
| 15:32.08 | clock_ | brlcad: how long does it take to somehow basically learn? |
| 15:32.41 | *** join/#brlcad b0ef (n=b0ef@062016141085.customer.alfanett.no) | |
| 15:32.50 | brlcad | i learned the basics in just a couple hours, enough to stand up and ride a wave for a few seconds and that was on a bad weather day |
| 15:33.04 | clock_ | which weather is bad? |
| 15:33.08 | clock_ | rain and thunderstorm? |
| 15:33.23 | brlcad | no, hard winds |
| 15:33.26 | b0ef | ehlo |
| 15:33.30 | b0ef | I'm a little confused; does brl-cad do full NURBS? |
| 15:33.35 | brlcad | makes for really sharp waves, rather difficult for a newbie |
| 15:33.45 | brlcad | b0ef: yes and no |
| 15:34.12 | brlcad | b0ef: there is a full nurbs primitive implementation, but it's not tied into the mged modeler |
| 15:34.34 | brlcad | so while they can exist and be ray-traced.. you can't easily make nurbs objects outside of code |
| 15:35.10 | clock_ | brlcad: I like software projects where I can talk with the main developer about surfing instead of about how asocial they are and how long it was since they saw the last female |
| 15:35.22 | b0ef | brlcad: what about NURBS curves inside mged? |
| 15:35.54 | b0ef | brlcad: or what about bezier? |
| 15:36.08 | CIA-9 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * 10brlcad/src/mged/ged.c: ged.h now declares the attach.c funcs |
| 15:36.19 | brlcad | b0ef: what do you mean "what about" them? |
| 15:36.23 | CIA-9 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * 10brlcad/src/mged/clone.c: ged.h declares is_dm_null() now, bump clone version in anticipation of getting it to work here shortly |
| 15:36.39 | b0ef | brlcad: am I able to draw bezier curves inside mged? |
| 15:36.40 | brlcad | you can see them, render them, move them about.. just not easy to make them using mged |
| 15:36.44 | brlcad | ahh |
| 15:37.02 | brlcad | you can draw bezier curves using the sketch editor for the sketch primitive |
| 15:37.32 | b0ef | brlcad: nice; is it possible to calculate an offset curve? |
| 15:37.46 | brlcad | and that can be linearly extruded, but not quite the same beast as full creation/edit support of nurbs/bsplines |
| 15:37.48 | clock_ | brlcad: you said once something about some brlcad conference... |
| 15:38.00 | clock_ | is the conference on some nice surf spot? :D |
| 15:38.30 | brlcad | clock_: nope, but it is at the top of the chesapeake.. great boating and food |
| 15:39.13 | b0ef | brlcad: my goal is to trace a picture with bezier; then calculate some offset curves; I seem to find no application that is able to do that;) |
| 15:39.46 | brlcad | b0ef: oof :) |
| 15:40.15 | brlcad | i'm not sure brl-cad is going to be considerably much help in that regard as well. at least with respect to the offset curves |
| 15:40.24 | ValarQ | brlcad: which chesapeake? |
| 15:40.26 | clock_ | b0ef: you can trace with sodipodi or inkscape, but I don't know what offset curves are |
| 15:40.47 | b0ef | clock_: http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/PathEstimation |
| 15:40.50 | brlcad | i know a variety of ways to fake the offset within a given numerical tolerance |
| 15:41.48 | brlcad | assuming you have some geometry that defines an outline, the rtedge ray-trace tool will outline an object -- you can feed a line thickness (i.e. an offset) to the tool which it will then use to render the picture |
| 15:42.08 | brlcad | that of course only works for discrete linear offsets |
| 15:42.20 | b0ef | brlcad: sure, but I need the offset curve; a curve I can further manipulate |
| 15:42.45 | brlcad | you'd then retrace the raster image's curve.. *ahem* |
| 15:42.53 | b0ef | brlcad: no way;) |
| 15:43.18 | b0ef | <PROTECTED> |
| 15:43.18 | b0ef | it's actually a road |
| 15:43.28 | b0ef | I trace the left part of the road, then calculate the right side |
| 15:44.19 | brlcad | ahh, so not even a centerline |
| 15:44.27 | b0ef | yeah |
| 15:44.56 | brlcad | sounds like it's purely a 2D task as well? |
| 15:45.02 | b0ef | yes |
| 15:45.30 | brlcad | you actually might be better off with something like photoshop or even better, illustrator |
| 15:45.47 | brlcad | where the path can easily be traced and it'll do left/right offsets |
| 15:46.08 | b0ef | well, I don't use proprietary software, so I need to find a free software package |
| 15:46.26 | brlcad | yeah, that's a bit high-end for gimpage.. hmm |
| 15:47.05 | brlcad | do you code? :) |
| 15:47.34 | b0ef | yeah, I know it's an easy solvable mathematical way, but it's so strange that no one does it |
| 15:47.38 | brlcad | in code it wouldn't be all that horrible to hook in the ability to do the offset of a curve in brl-cad fairly easily |
| 15:48.42 | b0ef | it's only using the cross product and the normal;) |
| 15:48.53 | brlcad | actually dealing with splines in general limits the number of computer scientists that don't glaze over with an empty facial expression to just a percent or two |
| 15:49.25 | brlcad | only using the cross product and normal for discrete values, which splines generally are not :) |
| 15:49.38 | brlcad | have to integrate over the entire curve, handle degenerate cases, etc |
| 15:51.35 | brlcad | hmm..i'll be sure to add that as a desired feature to the 2D curve editor in brl-cad's next gen modeling interface |
| 15:51.57 | b0ef | brlcad: oh, nice;) |
| 15:52.09 | b0ef | what toolkit you planning to use? |
| 15:52.31 | clock_ | brlcad: what determines if there are enough waves> |
| 15:52.54 | brlcad | some of the toolkis and libs are still under consideration/review.. there's not a lot of great options |
| 15:53.12 | b0ef | brlcad: is gtk+ likely? |
| 15:54.09 | b0ef | and is NURBS planned for this new software;), hehe |
| 15:54.18 | brlcad | for the overall gui, there's only a handful of players that can deal with all the main requirements: sdl, gtk, qt, clanlib, something custom, etc |
| 15:54.53 | brlcad | oh yeah, nurbs IS still one of BRL-CAD's primitives.. it's just a pita to add stuff to MGED which is already riddled with other issues |
| 15:55.19 | b0ef | awesome |
| 15:55.52 | brlcad | mged was never really written for direct input manipulation and mouse selections on geometry |
| 15:56.17 | ValarQ | brlcad: considered using cairo for the 2D stuff? |
| 15:56.32 | brlcad | ValarQ: not sure i've heard of cairo, got a link? |
| 15:56.36 | brlcad | ~cairo |
| 15:56.38 | ibot | rumour has it, cairo is a vector graphics library designed to provide high-quality display and print output. see http://www.freedesktop.org/Cairo/Home for details. |
| 15:56.45 | ValarQ | brlcad: http://cairographics.org/ |
| 15:56.48 | b0ef | direct command manipulation is really nice |
| 15:57.03 | b0ef | too bad cairo don't do 3d |
| 15:57.18 | ValarQ | b0ef: there is OpenGL for that |
| 15:57.32 | b0ef | ValarQ: I know, but 3d might make it into cairo some day |
| 15:57.49 | b0ef | ..instead of dealing diretly with opengl |
| 15:57.51 | ValarQ | b0ef: ok, thats news to me |
| 15:58.21 | b0ef | ValarQ: I actually have a thread on the mailinglist about 3d cairo |
| 15:58.28 | brlcad | ~ibot, no cairo is a 2D graphics library with supporting various output formats like the X Window System, Win32, image buffers, and PostScript, PDF, and SVG file output. Distributed under the LGPL, written in C, see http://cairographics.org/ for details. |
| 15:58.29 | ibot | brlcad: okay |
| 15:58.49 | brlcad | bah engrish |
| 15:59.01 | ValarQ | b0ef: what list? |
| 15:59.08 | b0ef | ValarQ: the cairo list |
| 15:59.54 | ValarQ | b0ef: ok, i'll have a look at it |
| 16:00.15 | brlcad | ValarQ: I hadn't looked into them yet, thanks for the link.. their image buffer and opengl output backends sound interesting |
| 16:02.11 | brlcad | there's also pretty interesting potential to use them for the gui widgets.. something like an svg-based render layer for a scalable/zoomable interface |
| 16:02.30 | ValarQ | brlcad: yeah, there is gtk engines for cairo actually |
| 16:03.11 | ValarQ | brlcad: should be really intresting when they start using the glitz backend |
| 16:04.02 | brlcad | unfortunately, gtk is one of the least appealing of the toolkits for various management reasons |
| 16:04.21 | b0ef | as gtk now uses cairo, the interface is zoomable |
| 16:04.31 | b0ef | oh, no;) |
| 16:05.27 | b0ef | a gimp style interface would be nice, with an emacs interface;) |
| 16:05.39 | ValarQ | brlcad: gtk was just an example of something using cairo itself |
| 16:06.16 | ValarQ | brlcad: many toolkits should be able to embedd cairo |
| 16:06.19 | brlcad | the interface style of the new environment is already set -- full context management |
| 16:06.50 | ValarQ | whats that? |
| 16:06.55 | brlcad | instead of the mged-/gimp-style many independent windows that coordinate |
| 16:07.09 | brlcad | helps to think of what games do |
| 16:07.16 | brlcad | or other major CAD systems for that matter |
| 16:07.39 | ValarQ | to bad :/ |
| 16:07.44 | brlcad | but most definitely not looking or functioning like eitherr |
| 16:08.20 | b0ef | still not sure what that means |
| 16:08.40 | b0ef | ValarQ: indeed;) |
| 16:09.32 | archivist | you waste too much time window swapping then |
| 16:09.37 | ValarQ | there is to many apps out there that looks like they embed Xnest |
| 16:10.01 | brlcad | it's still a possibility to have some sort of toggle, but it goes against most researched humane interface design principles |
| 16:10.33 | brlcad | even the concept of simply having "windows" that you have to manage and hierarchical "folders" as well |
| 16:11.24 | archivist | I believe toolbars should come and go as needed (automagicly most of the time) |
| 16:11.49 | b0ef | when you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to think again;) |
| 16:12.43 | brlcad | b0ef: i don't think the design approach i'm considering is anywhere close to a majority, other than paying attention to some of the most successful application interface environments in the gaming industry |
| 16:13.27 | b0ef | brlcad: in any case; I'm happy for a NURBS environment; somethine missing totally in the free software world;) |
| 16:13.46 | b0ef | s/somethine/something/ |
| 16:14.01 | ValarQ | brlcad: wasn't those applications developed for platforms with very poor windowsmanagers? |
| 16:15.12 | brlcad | ValarQ: yes and no.. I'd say they were simply designed to work well with minimal dependencies on their environment since there's limited assumptions you can make about it |
| 16:15.44 | brlcad | as an extensively cross-platform CAD system, we have a lot of the same issues |
| 16:17.20 | brlcad | the mac environment would serve as a nice fully integrateable environment where multiple applications can easily be hooked in with pretty much guaranteed assurance of their behavior and existance |
| 16:17.33 | brlcad | but then that is of course a rather limited subset of the community |
| 16:17.39 | clock_ | brlcad: I once needed to print a webpage on MAC and I got creeps |
| 16:17.49 | brlcad | linux and BSD pretty much give you no guarantees :) |
| 16:18.08 | clock_ | I couldn't find the print function. After extensive search I realized I have to go into a menu of different window than the browser! |
| 16:18.19 | brlcad | clock_: for an exceptional cost -- one which traditionally nobody wants to pay for :) |
| 16:18.38 | brlcad | hence why this is proceeding as an open source effort, not something funded |
| 16:18.48 | ValarQ | brlcad: what toolkits is on the top of the list? |
| 16:18.58 | b0ef | brlcad: the new gtk offers a very powerful printing feature |
| 16:19.22 | brlcad | b0ef: that's nice, but certainly not the highest priority feature to select a toolkit based off of :) |
| 16:19.44 | brlcad | ValarQ: hmm.. there is a list, but that's on a different machine than where I"m at now |
| 16:19.47 | b0ef | brlcad: true, but just a reply to the comment about printing;) |
| 16:19.55 | ValarQ | brlcad: ok, no hurry |
| 16:20.31 | brlcad | the biggest "debate" toolkits are the ones for the main context management and any gui/widget library |
| 16:20.56 | brlcad | opengl is at least a requirement this time around, so we don't have to struggle with that one |
| 16:21.42 | clock_ | brlcad: how old have you been when you learned surfing? |
| 16:21.49 | ValarQ | sounds good, you can always use mesa if there is no hw-support |
| 16:21.51 | brlcad | clock_: just a couple years ago |
| 16:22.15 | brlcad | ValarQ: at least on some platforms ;) |
| 16:23.43 | ValarQ | brlcad: mesa works on all platforms i use :o) |
| 16:23.54 | brlcad | one methodology currently still being retained is the idea of zero external dependencies, so any toolkits being considered also have to be weighed from the perspective of their dependencies as well, how complex they are to build and configure and use, etc |
| 16:24.37 | ValarQ | i guess gtk+cairo would produce heavy dependencies... |
| 16:25.12 | brlcad | like I said.. gtk is a dependency nightmare.. they're one of the worst of all packages |
| 16:25.50 | brlcad | only a few even come close to comparing, like mozilla, x11, kde, and gnome projects :) |
| 16:26.13 | brlcad | they do have nice momentum, though |
| 16:26.45 | ValarQ | so you will keep tcl/tk then? :) |
| 16:27.14 | brlcad | another downside is that gtk doesn't (or at least didn't until recently) support native mac os x |
| 16:27.52 | ValarQ | you mean aqua? |
| 16:27.58 | brlcad | tcl is used by the lower level libraries, and will be exposed by a user front-end plugin module (mentioned yesterday iirc), but not for gui development |
| 16:28.01 | brlcad | causes too many problems |
| 16:28.22 | brlcad | yeah, an aqua style interface instead of going through X11 |
| 16:28.29 | brlcad | and yes, I know about http://developer.imendio.com/wiki/Gtk_Mac_OS_X |
| 16:28.30 | brlcad | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:28.56 | clock_ | brlcad: what do you use for your own PC? BSD? Linux? Windows? |
| 16:28.59 | clock_ | brlcad: Mac? |
| 16:29.01 | ValarQ | i hope this doesn't lead to qt... |
| 16:29.43 | brlcad | Qt is less than desireable for licensing reasons and supported platforms, though they do have a slightly cleaner API and commercial respect |
| 16:29.58 | clock_ | brlcad: but now the look of brlcad generates reminiscence of something that's army-grade |
| 16:30.16 | brlcad | clock_: I use a variety of systems, usually on a BSD, Linux, or Mac OS X system |
| 16:30.25 | clock_ | brlcad: yes but your own PC |
| 16:30.37 | clock_ | brlcad: the system you like personally most |
| 16:30.50 | brlcad | usually preferring Mac OS X simply due to the developer facilities and integration with other apps |
| 16:31.08 | brlcad | clock_: all of those are on my own pc.. i have lots of machines |
| 16:31.14 | clock_ | hehe :) |
| 16:31.16 | ValarQ | what more widgetsets is there? |
| 16:31.20 | ValarQ | motif? wings? |
| 16:31.26 | brlcad | my servers are mostly bsd |
| 16:31.44 | ValarQ | brlcad: good taste :) |
| 16:31.46 | clock_ | brlcad: do you like surf rock? |
| 16:31.57 | ValarQ | brlcad: dare i ask what windowmanager you are using? |
| 16:32.35 | brlcad | gui widget libraries is the hardest to pick from -- there's gtk, wxwidgets, cegui, agar, .. few others |
| 16:33.42 | brlcad | ValarQ: I generally prefer to live in a console, 95% of my time is spent there, so I don't generally care about the window manager |
| 16:33.57 | brlcad | emacs and a posix shell do most of what I need :) |
| 16:34.38 | brlcad | but when I did used to care, blackbox/fluxbox, pwm, and windowmaker were my cup of tea |
| 16:34.38 | ValarQ | brlcad: ok, the emacs-friendliest wm then :) |
| 16:34.58 | brlcad | you? |
| 16:35.07 | ValarQ | i mainly use IceWM |
| 16:36.03 | ValarQ | http://arda.no-ip.org/iceshot.png |
| 16:37.16 | ValarQ | i switched to emacs last year so i'm not using it for everything yet :) |
| 16:39.30 | brlcad | ahh, just starting to see the light :) |
| 16:39.53 | brlcad | and the light shall set you free |
| 16:40.38 | ValarQ | i believe i recently admited that i still use the unholy combination |
| 16:40.47 | brlcad | so you're a haskell fan too, eh? |
| 16:41.13 | ValarQ | yeah |
| 16:41.14 | brlcad | maybe you can help work up the haskell command interface when it's all ready to go ;) |
| 16:41.37 | ValarQ | that sounds neat |
| 16:42.04 | ValarQ | why use Haskell for the cli? |
| 16:42.26 | ValarQ | the use of Parsec or do you want to embed an interpretter? |
| 16:42.41 | brlcad | the entire plugin interface is where most of the thought and effort have gone into the project to date.. I so don't want to get into religion wars for the new gui |
| 16:43.17 | brlcad | actually, I'm utilizing a concept similar to what was done in the gimp with their script-fu engine |
| 16:43.22 | ValarQ | no need for wars (as long as the new interface is cli based ;) |
| 16:43.28 | brlcad | pluggable scripting layers for various languages |
| 16:45.53 | brlcad | still haven't decided whether I have to differentiate between those that lend themselves well to a command interpreter (e.g. bash, tcsh, tcl, ksh, lisp, etc) and those that don't necessarily (python, perl, ml, haskell, ruby, etc) |
| 16:46.59 | brlcad | there will necessarily be a cli, and it'll necessarily support at least tcl just due to OUR existing users -- lisp would be useful for the autocad crowd, bash/ksh/tcsh are of course familiar to the rest of the world |
| 16:47.45 | brlcad | the languages that don't lend themselves well to a cli do lend themselves well to plugins regardless, geared well for easier programming |
| 16:48.01 | ValarQ | isn't there some support for python today? |
| 16:48.10 | brlcad | ? |
| 16:48.19 | ValarQ | i believe i saw some pythonflag when i compiled brlcad |
| 16:48.44 | brlcad | there's some code in one module of the package that uses python, but that's a pretty isolated case |
| 16:48.50 | ValarQ | ok |
| 16:48.56 | brlcad | nothing in current rendering or modeling facilities uses it |
| 16:49.25 | ValarQ | how is the tcl support implemented? |
| 16:49.31 | brlcad | python could potentially attract some of the blender attention, though they don't exactly use it as a cli |
| 16:50.31 | brlcad | tcl is integrated in various ways but from their C api facilities and as the command interpreter for mged |
| 16:50.56 | ValarQ | ok, straight C api then |
| 16:51.41 | brlcad | we also kick off a full interpreter |
| 16:51.53 | brlcad | you can script tcl directly into the mged command window |
| 16:52.11 | ValarQ | thats a nice feature |
| 16:52.49 | ValarQ | will you keep tcl as main brlcad-"shell" language? |
| 16:52.54 | brlcad | tcl was chosen back in the day is it was one of the few languages that let you dynamicly add new commands to the language itself on the fly |
| 16:53.03 | brlcad | no, it won't be |
| 16:53.33 | brlcad | it'll be just another interface like all the others, and plugin-writers will be able to choose the environment they prefer |
| 16:53.42 | ValarQ | ok |
| 16:53.52 | brlcad | users will too.. so if you want the traditional tcl shell, great, if you want the more familiar bash, great, etc |
| 16:54.47 | brlcad | that's what I mean, though about distinguishing between the plugin writers and the cli itself.. i didn't want to distinguish, but it may be necessary |
| 16:55.39 | brlcad | the plugin command interface and of course the gui are going to be the two most powerful aspects of the system for extension |
| 16:56.35 | brlcad | hoping that will help activate community interest to implement the pieces people need since it's very much too much of a task to cover all the primary application domains as an open source project without major developer involvement |
| 16:57.17 | brlcad | design, drafting, machining, mechanical, engineering, analysis, electronic, industrial, architecture ... |
| 16:57.46 | brlcad | each with their own language, expectations, and requirements |
| 16:58.12 | ValarQ | with a well thought out and documented pluginsystem it might gain more interest |
| 16:58.17 | archivist | electronic? are you thinking pcb design? |
| 16:58.29 | ValarQ | just look at how many is writing emacs plugins :) |
| 16:58.44 | brlcad | or eclipse plugins for that matter, or game plugins, etc |
| 16:59.01 | ValarQ | game plugins? |
| 16:59.19 | brlcad | lots of people are willing to dabble on the concept of a plugin, way fewer are willing to "contribute directly" |
| 16:59.34 | brlcad | saw that with bzflag when plugins were implemented |
| 17:00.31 | brlcad | people that said they couldn't code were suddenly writing excellent plugins .. mods that would have been easily accepted into the main code line as a non-plugin |
| 17:01.03 | brlcad | but they have a mental block for contributing that way, perhaps a feeling of ownership, or responsibility |
| 17:02.42 | ValarQ | well, people should be able to develop plugins without sending them for distribution with the main package |
| 17:02.54 | brlcad | sure |
| 17:03.12 | clock_ | from a band called Fire Dept. |
| 17:03.18 | ValarQ | it's a bit sad thought |
| 17:03.29 | brlcad | but if the plugin is good stuff, why not distribute it with the main package? :) |
| 17:03.39 | brlcad | end users don't care |
| 17:03.49 | brlcad | they just want the features, they have something they want to get done |
| 17:03.57 | brlcad | (like that spline road task) ;) |
| 17:04.44 | ValarQ | come to think of it, i haven't send any patches to brlcad myself... |
| 17:05.55 | brlcad | :) |
| 17:06.13 | brlcad | patches always welcome, they get priority attention and are the fastest way to get commit access :) |
| 17:08.12 | CIA-9 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * 10brlcad/configure.ac: gah, set LIBDS, not LIBDL |
| 17:08.13 | ValarQ | i have been thinking of an external sketch editor, but maybe it's not worth it until you settle for a gui toolkit |
| 17:08.13 | archivist | ahem splines are fun (not) |
| 17:09.29 | brlcad | it would be worth it imho.. this major plugin system with a new shiney gui isn't going to be production code for quite a while still |
| 17:10.02 | brlcad | i thought about kicking off qcad in mged as the sketch editor.. shouldn't be incredibly difficult to get working |
| 17:10.32 | brlcad | especially since both do dxf, could be a translation glue |
| 17:11.37 | *** join/#brlcad IriX64 (n=IriX64@toronto-HSE-ppp4309547.sympatico.ca) | |
| 17:11.41 | ValarQ | i have been thinking of converting another project to gtk2hs/cairo |
| 17:12.22 | ValarQ | that is if i can get good canvas functionallity with those |
| 17:12.58 | IriX64 | SHOT: cpu = 7.875 sec, elapsed = 15.919 sec |
| 17:12.58 | IriX64 | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:12.58 | IriX64 | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:12.58 | IriX64 | Additional mem=393216., #malloc=429, #free=359, #realloc=3 (70 retained) |
| 17:12.58 | IriX64 | 9917603 solid/ray intersections: 7525144 hits + 2392459 miss |
| 17:13.00 | IriX64 | pruned 75.9%: 0 model RPP, 13088535 dups skipped, 192420 solid RPP |
| 17:13.02 | IriX64 | Frame 0: 117649 pixels in 7.88 sec = 14939.56 pixels/sec |
| 17:13.04 | IriX64 | Frame 0: 1125029 rays in 7.88 sec = 142860.83 rays/sec (RTFM) |
| 17:13.06 | IriX64 | Frame 0: 1125029 rays in 7.88 sec = 142860.83 rays/CPU_sec |
| 17:13.08 | IriX64 | Frame 0: 1125029 rays in 15.92 sec = 70672.09 rays/sec (wallclock) |
| 17:13.10 | IriX64 | Raytrace complete. |
| 17:13.12 | IriX64 | crap sorry. |
| 17:13.23 | IriX64 | really am that wasnt sposed to happen. |
| 17:13.24 | brlcad | eek |
| 17:13.47 | ValarQ | IriX64: it did anyway :P |
| 17:13.56 | IriX64 | *tell me about it. |
| 17:14.15 | ValarQ | i just did... |
| 17:14.19 | IriX64 | bitchx suck my nether regions with your face :P |
| 17:31.36 | *** join/#brlcad DTRemenak (n=DTRemena@c-24-23-59-104.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) | |
| 17:34.49 | *** join/#brlcad MarioD (n=who@toronto-HSE-ppp4309547.sympatico.ca) | |
| 17:35.15 | MarioD | IriX64 what the heck are you doing still here ? :) |
| 17:35.35 | MarioD | how long does it take? |
| 17:37.25 | MarioD | how do i get my nick back when this happens? |
| 17:38.53 | IriX64 | thats better. |
| 17:39.44 | IriX64 | cleverly programmed into every compile of brlcad is a long coffee break, see you in a bit. |
| 17:40.33 | archivist | a slow box has a meal break as well |
| 18:13.22 | IriX64 | hah im having a barley sandwich :) |
| 18:13.37 | brlcad | hops and barley? |
| 18:13.55 | IriX64 | they don't mix them in lagers and ales. |
| 18:14.47 | IriX64 | cut and paste now works. thanks for putting up with me. |
| 18:15.10 | IriX64 | mged> |
| 18:15.10 | IriX64 | mged> |
| 18:15.14 | IriX64 | see |
| 18:16.06 | IriX64 | and thats *not windows mged. |
| 18:16.41 | IriX64 | altho i have that here as well. |
| 18:17.04 | IriX64 | bldg391 is complex. |
| 18:17.20 | IriX64 | mirrored floors for real? |
| 18:17.55 | IriX64 | mirrored floors are a military secret? :) |
| 18:20.31 | brlcad | no comment |
| 18:21.32 | IriX64 | ermf can't open frame buffer. |
| 18:24.56 | CIA-9 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * 10brlcad/src/canon/Makefile.am: png-ipu needs LIBPNG |
| 18:28.31 | IriX64 | thats better, sigh i had two copies of mged running, doh...doofus. |
| 18:30.23 | IriX64 | hahah the enterprise shuttle showing me her belly, say dear do you belly dance too :) |
| 18:31.00 | ValarQ | is brlcad still a military project? |
| 18:31.14 | IriX64 | they put it into open source. |
| 18:31.22 | IriX64 | gnu licences they say. |
| 18:31.50 | IriX64 | respects to thaose guys 30 meg bz2 source archive. |
| 18:31.54 | IriX64 | those too. |
| 18:32.46 | IriX64 | im sure they contribute still. |
| 18:32.48 | ValarQ | yeah, but is there still military funded devs working on it? |
| 18:33.06 | IriX64 | that i don't know. |
| 18:33.17 | IriX64 | check cvs on sourceforge. |
| 18:33.25 | IriX64 | im not in cvs. |
| 18:34.20 | IriX64 | id paste this picture into the channel if i had a way, its gorgeous. |
| 18:35.38 | IriX64 | Model: X(-50000,50000), Y(-50000,50000), Z(-50000,50000) |
| 18:35.38 | IriX64 | View: 314.544 azimuth, -75.9309 elevation off of front view |
| 18:35.38 | IriX64 | Orientation: 0.311442, 0.94234, -0.0559178, 0.108957 |
| 18:35.38 | IriX64 | E |
| 18:36.53 | IriX64 | Model: X(-50000,50000), Y(-50000,50000), Z(-50000,50000) |
| 18:36.53 | IriX64 | View: 314.544 azimuth, -75.9309 elevation off of front view |
| 18:36.53 | IriX64 | Orientation: 0.311442, 0.94234, -0.0559178, 0.108957 |
| 18:36.53 | IriX64 | E |
| 18:37.09 | IriX64 | ah well so pastes not perfect yet. |
| 18:37.45 | IriX64 | Model: X(-50000,50000), Y(-50000,50000), Z(-50000,50000) |
| 18:37.45 | IriX64 | View: 314.544 azimuth, -75.9309 elevation off of front view |
| 18:37.45 | IriX64 | Orientation: 0.311442, 0.94234, -0.0559178, 0.108957 |
| 18:37.45 | IriX64 | E |
| 18:38.00 | IriX64 | doesnt clear the buffer darn. |
| 18:40.55 | IriX64 | the top of the shuttle appears flat (and undamaged :)) |
| 18:55.45 | IriX64 | brb |
| 19:01.49 | ValarQ | that irix user sure got a lot to paste |
| 19:07.06 | *** join/#brlcad IriX64 (n=who@toronto-HSE-ppp4309547.sympatico.ca) | |
| 19:12.01 | IriX64 | mucho better :) |
| 19:12.36 | IriX64 | say you ever hear the song Roland The Headless Thompson Gunner? |
| 19:13.32 | IriX64 | By Warren Zevon (Nightime in the switching yards albumn) |
| 19:19.16 | IriX64 | if you're permitted to answer this, just how many ppl does bldging 391 serve? |
| 19:21.30 | IriX64 | dare i post my last shot? I so love to share. |
| 19:22.37 | IriX64 | *cough* |
| 19:43.22 | brlcad | ValarQ: BRL-CAD is still used and funded (with no plans to stop anytime in the forseeable future) |
| 19:44.19 | brlcad | of course still directly and indirectly contributing too -- they have quite a vested interest -- though the project is an open source project in it's own right like any other |
| 19:48.43 | IriX64 | ValarQ the military tho i don't think hangs out here, course i could be wrong. |
| 19:49.32 | IriX64 | gotta go W2k beckons. |
| 19:52.53 | brlcad | quite an odd fellow sometimes |
| 19:54.43 | ValarQ | yeah |
| 19:59.43 | brlcad | which country? |
| 20:02.15 | ValarQ | sweden |
| 20:02.22 | ``Erik | borkborkbork |
| 20:02.39 | ValarQ | ``Erik: no, i didn't work in the kitchen :P |
| 20:02.58 | ``Erik | :D |
| 20:07.57 | brlcad | heh |
| 21:25.28 | b0ef | any plans to make the documentation available online? (html) |
| 21:31.12 | brlcad | b0ef: what documentation? most of the most up to date docs are on-line just not in html form |
| 21:32.39 | b0ef | brlcad: I'm thinking online browsable |
| 21:33.14 | brlcad | the main docs (the tutorial series) were written and finished just shortly before the open sourcing, they were printed up and nicely bound .. pdf's were the next best thing |
| 21:33.31 | brlcad | could run pdf2html i reckon ;) |
| 21:34.13 | brlcad | actually looking to convert all of the documentation into docbook format so that it's pretty much turnkey to get various output formats automatically including on-line html forms |
| 21:34.33 | b0ef | yeah, would be nice |
| 21:34.44 | brlcad | there's a guy working on that now, was all done with vol I and had moved on to vol II |
| 23:56.52 | CIA-9 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * 10brlcad/ (README doc/description.txt doc/pad_file.xml.in): emphasize cross-platform open source instead of comprehensive (technically not comprehensive CAD to say the least) |
