irclog2html for #brlcad on 20060713

00:00.00 brlcad for mged it normally will be
00:00.17 brlcad sound like you tried to link against a system tcl perhaps?
00:00.51 brlcad all else fails, make sure --enable-almost-everything works
00:01.17 brlcad that will build isolated so it doesn't try to use any system libraries
00:02.16 IriX64 back in the compile saddle again :)
00:02.18 bjorkBSD oh i pkg_add'ed brlcad :-S
00:02.31 bjorkBSD should i have made it from ports?
00:03.42 brlcad bjorkBSD: hrmph
00:03.50 brlcad no, that should have just worked
00:03.59 bjorkBSD hmm.
00:04.05 bjorkBSD i can remake it.
00:04.06 brlcad sounds like a bug for the package maintainer..
00:04.19 IriX64 depends how you install it tho :) (ducking and running)
00:05.44 IriX64 well an hour from now we can compare notes bjorkBSD.
00:06.49 bjorkBSD hehehhe
00:07.23 brlcad yeeesh, putting together a brl-cad quick reference card is going to be harder than it was for mged..
00:07.38 bjorkBSD brlcad, are you the only one working on it?
00:07.55 brlcad the quick reference card? yeah, just me
00:09.10 brlcad it's a matter of condensign about 400 commands onto two simple sheets of paper
00:09.28 bjorkBSD hmm.
00:09.33 brlcad including diagrams and other writeups to make it look elegant and be informative
00:09.48 bjorkBSD i see i see.
00:10.01 brlcad i think i'm just going to have to widdle down the command list to a subset of maybe a third
00:10.44 brlcad or get incredibly creative with diagrams to pack all the command info into less space
00:11.36 bjorkBSD sounds like an interesting challenge, if you ask me.
00:11.37 brlcad the mged one didn't take me that long at all, maybe a solid weeks worth of time
00:11.52 bjorkBSD i've started looking at the docs as part of the interface.
00:12.02 brlcad and i'm already finding the mged one utterly useful
00:12.02 bjorkBSD it helps you interact more efficiently with the system.
00:12.26 bjorkBSD so maybe the HCI factors might be applied to the docs (?). speculating.
00:12.55 brlcad they can and should, it's just usually good "good design and clean layout" etc
00:13.04 brlcad s/good "/called/
00:13.56 bjorkBSD aha! some one agrees!
00:13.59 brlcad emphasizing the most important bits of data in a sea of information, conveying the data in an intelligent and compact manner
00:16.33 brlcad it took me over an hour, for example to write a single sentance that succintly explained brl-cad's 2d and 3d coordinate system conventions, choosing just the right words in the right order to best utilize the space constraint
00:17.04 bjorkBSD hmmm.
00:17.16 brlcad seriously feeling cramped for space for this overall brl-cad quick reference sheet though
00:17.17 bjorkBSD sounds like a great way of RTFM...
00:17.30 bjorkBSD sounds like a newbie exercise!
00:19.10 bjorkBSD there! IriX64 it's your job :))
00:19.24 bjorkBSD i'd do it, but i don't even have brlcad anymore :( (lies)
00:19.42 IriX64 gotta know the commands and language before you can write it up bjorkBSD.
00:20.00 brlcad it's incredibly rare for a dev to have enough design, language, layout, publication experience to put this kind of stuff together
00:20.19 IriX64 delegate it :)
00:20.19 brlcad IriX64: even I don't know all the commands
00:20.20 fenn oh brlcad you're so awesome
00:20.28 bjorkBSD but it's writing. the process of writing it *will* teach all those things, IriX64
00:20.56 brlcad fenn: heh
00:20.56 IriX64 not unless you try every command while you write it up.
00:21.08 IriX64 fenn is that a dig ;)
00:21.35 brlcad fenn: that was just a statement in general and didn't really include myself in it .. it takes me way too long
00:22.23 brlcad i mean, you leave untrained devs alone with a design and you end up with stuff like mged :)
00:22.39 IriX64 or better :)
00:22.42 fenn if documentation is hard to write it usually means the interface is bad
00:23.17 IriX64 whats so hard about click edit click gemoetry browser and your in business?
00:23.21 brlcad heh, mged's docs weren't hard to write.. and I wouldn't say the interface is good :P
00:24.55 brlcad this quick reference card is more like documenting everything you can do in bash briefly in just a page or two including all the standard posix commands
00:25.13 IriX64 eeek :{
00:25.35 IriX64 why you?
00:25.42 brlcad sure writing the 20 page manpage is easy, or even a book on the shell .. but condensing the info I think is non-trivial
00:26.02 IriX64 you must live wrong. :)
00:26.07 brlcad IriX64: who else is going to do it?
00:26.12 IriX64 to be assigned such.
00:26.34 brlcad i don't assign anything
00:26.45 brlcad i think the project needs it
00:26.57 IriX64 you saying you seriuosly know ever command?
00:27.06 brlcad do an ls on /usr/brlcad/bin and tell me what anything other than rt and mged does?
00:27.09 bjorkBSD he said he didn't.
00:27.32 brlcad I know most of them, but certainly not all of them
00:27.56 brlcad at least not without taking a peek at their source for a reminder
00:28.07 IriX64 as i said i'm a newbie but willing to learn.
00:29.08 brlcad a lot of it is easily categorized fortunately.. might come up with some sort of diagram that's better than listing them all out
00:29.40 brlcad example, all the image reader tools that display to a framebuffer: bw-fb cat-fb cell-fb cmap-fb gif-fb gif2fb orle-fb pix-fb pixflip-fb pl-fb png-fb polar-fb pp-fb rle-fb spm-fb
00:30.35 IriX64 better explain just what a framebuffer is to brlcad.
00:30.52 brlcad yep, that's going in too
00:31.11 IriX64 put it all in a gui :)
00:31.26 bjorkBSD IriX64 good good, you're lending a hand? :D
00:31.33 IriX64 heh
00:31.38 brlcad fwiw.. "brlcad" usually refers to me, "brl-cad" would be to the project in casual parlance
00:32.03 brlcad no need, just confusing me :)
00:32.07 fenn i thought your nick was brlcad so whenever something was on-topic it'd beep at you
00:32.18 IriX64 bjorkBSD lets collaborate we'll do the gui.
00:32.49 IriX64 for instance tools-->raytrace control panel
00:32.54 brlcad fenn: nah, I have keyword highlighting turned on for that
00:33.29 IriX64 simply have it pass paramters or defaulkts to rt.
00:33.37 IriX64 err defaults.
00:33.42 brlcad and it's only because my primary dev machine is packed up for a move that I'm mostly chatting as brlcad, often switch names around :)
00:35.49 bjorkBSD gui? i can't code for shit IriX64
00:36.09 bjorkBSD sure i can read c and what not. but i've been too <insert reasons here> to code anything.
00:36.17 brlcad the official project name is "BRL-CAD" case and dash included. "brl-cad" is usually used for casual talk, "brlcad" only for file and directory names where the dash can be unconventional, annoying, unsupported, etc
00:36.49 fenn oo there is brl-cad.org
00:36.51 brlcad certainly not a big deal, though
00:37.37 brlcad yeah, http://www.BRL-CAD.org is the shiznits
00:37.50 brlcad *cough*
00:38.04 brlcad another design suckage that someone will hopefully work on
00:39.43 fenn is the brl-cad API documented anywhere?
00:40.11 fenn i mean besides doxygen
00:40.31 brlcad the code is the prime source, but yeah, there is more
00:40.31 IriX64 you guys disabled doxygen in 7.6.?
00:41.15 fenn gotta love those automatically generated graphviz diagrams
00:41.22 brlcad there have been several research papers for the core libraries, as well as presentations at conferences (at least one is available on the website)
00:44.52 IriX64 optical shader library?
00:46.29 brlcad hmm?
00:46.35 brlcad liboptical
00:47.31 IriX64 multi-pane on lets tango.
00:47.33 brlcad that's where the light transport simulation of the ray-tracer is managed, for generating optical images
00:47.55 IriX64 seems to be automatic in raytrace control panel.
00:47.57 brlcad (as opposed to infrared, xray, or some other multispectral tracing, or even a different algorithm like path tracing)
00:48.14 IriX64 you support all those?
00:48.24 brlcad the raytrace control panel kicks off 'rt', which is the optical ray tracer (that uses liboptical)
00:48.42 brlcad yes, they're all supported to various decrees
00:49.04 IriX64 right that i know but the database background overrides raytrace control panel, should be the other way around no?
00:50.26 brlcad database background?
00:50.26 IriX64 and the framebuffer X-lay selection and or object selection don't seem to stick across invocations.
00:50.37 IriX64 color scheme.
00:51.04 brlcad still not following you
00:51.13 IriX64 thats all right.
00:51.16 IriX64 :)
00:51.22 brlcad different terminology perhaps :)
00:51.37 IriX64 im a coder not a user. more's the pity.
00:51.41 brlcad the raytracer ALSO supports different lighting models, that's a different concept
00:52.09 brlcad different shaders too
00:52.29 IriX64 if you choose a background color in the control panel, the background is drawn in that color as the solid model is rendered on the screen.
00:52.33 brlcad so it can be using the optics library and implement a completely non-optical shader algorithm (like cell shading, or flat shading)
00:52.49 IriX64 thats all math to me :)
00:53.22 brlcad ahh, that's just that.. a background color is drawn when the model is missed.. nothing more or less -- doesn't even really involve the lighting model or shaders or spectral mode
00:53.38 IriX64 instead of a dark background you can choose your own color.
00:54.17 brlcad yep, but it's just a visualization/data hack
00:54.35 IriX64 ahh ok so its not even in the database is that right?
00:54.41 brlcad used for simulating an alpha channel from a time before they existed
00:54.52 bjorkBSD brlcad, and all this info's in the code?
00:54.52 brlcad it's not in the geometry database
00:55.13 IriX64 on that note i go see a man about a recurring leak, bbiab :)
00:55.19 brlcad bjorkBSD: yes, some of what I just said is even in manpages
00:55.32 bjorkBSD hmm i see.
00:55.44 brlcad like man brlcad, man libfb, man librt
00:56.00 brlcad fenn: i suppose those would quality as api documentation
00:56.28 brlcad though I haven't reviewed them in quite some time to update them with recent modifications
01:14.36 IriX64 wheres the plot from a file tool?
01:15.01 IriX64 err well i can send it to a plot file but how do i plot it?
01:15.38 IriX64 bjorkBSD?
01:16.03 IriX64 fenn?
01:19.07 bjorkBSD no.
01:19.17 bjorkBSD alright. yes. :D
01:21.34 *** join/#brlcad fenn (n=fenn@adsl-70-239-91-104.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net)
01:24.09 IriX64 look bjorkBSD comedians usually get paid :)
01:26.44 bjorkBSD heheheh
01:34.17 fenn sourceforge has such horrible service lately
01:45.39 brlcad fenn: yet still free, gift horse and all
01:45.39 IriX64 fanfare.... lets eat.
01:45.57 IriX64 what the pizza :P
01:46.26 brlcad when you say plot file, what do you mean?
01:46.30 fenn there are lots of free websites that dont consistently neglect service interruptions..
01:46.34 brlcad brl-cad deals with .pl unix-style plot files
01:47.13 bjorkBSD brlcad, is there a GUI interface you like?
01:47.24 bjorkBSD for drawing programs and whatnot.
01:47.33 brlcad bjorkBSD: you mean in general from an hci perspective or cad-specific?
01:48.09 IriX64 mine says cray.plot.
01:48.55 brlcad IriX64: how did you create cray.plot?
01:49.13 IriX64 jeez he's hauling out the cat-o-nine, err wait, wrong service :)
01:49.21 IriX64 render view
01:49.29 brlcad ah
01:49.50 IriX64 there's a postscript option too as well as rt.
01:50.30 brlcad there's a whole slew of pl-* tools for manipulating plot files.. if you saved a 3D plot file, you can overlay that into mged again for visualization
01:50.51 brlcad if you just want a quick view, something like pl-fb -F/dev/Xl
01:51.07 IriX64 thankyou... just a sec.
01:52.04 IriX64 its a standalone command :(
01:53.51 IriX64 smoke break. :)
02:06.30 bjorkBSD i meant cad specific.
02:06.43 bjorkBSD sorry, i was afIRC
02:09.08 fenn qcad has a decent UI philosopy
02:09.09 brlcad bjorkBSD: i don't think I'd consider any of them spectacular though many of them have some really nice isolated features
02:09.31 bjorkBSD ah okay.
02:09.36 brlcad unigraphics goes to pretty extensive lengths to get rid of modalities for example, and does an okay job at it
02:09.39 bjorkBSD what'll a good one look like?
02:10.38 fenn a good one will not force you to switch back and forth between keyboard and mouse
02:11.27 bjorkBSD hmmm.
02:11.44 bjorkBSD so one that's exclusively keyboarded or moused?
02:12.06 bjorkBSD kb/mouse mutual exclusivity is a myth i say.
02:12.09 brlcad no, primarily gui/mouse driven
02:12.21 bjorkBSD they're meant to be complementary.
02:12.39 fenn i didnt say you couldnt use both at the same time
02:12.43 bjorkBSD i just don't buy the argument that switching hands from keyboard to mouse is such a drain on time.
02:12.52 fenn blender does a nice job of using both
02:13.00 bjorkBSD cool.
02:13.05 bjorkBSD i haven't looked at blender yet.
02:14.37 bjorkBSD mouseless keyboard/keyboardless mouse :)
02:15.35 bjorkBSD given that the mouse has been around since the early '60s ... it's a pity it's still so misunderstood.
02:16.08 fenn poor poor mouse, nobody understands him
02:17.48 bjorkBSD fenn how do you think the mouse should be used?
02:17.56 bjorkBSD exclusively as a paper weight?
02:18.09 bjorkBSD ... in a paperless world, no less :)
02:18.39 fenn i think the mouse is more than a paperlessweight]
02:18.52 bjorkBSD heheh.
02:18.56 bjorkBSD an ornament then.
02:19.03 bjorkBSD the more buttons, the more 3l33t :D
02:19.17 bjorkBSD and if it's just one button, you're a mac user and 3l33t regardless :P
02:19.18 bjorkBSD j/k
02:19.31 fenn navigating in 3d is a lot easier with a mouse
02:19.48 fenn so is selecting a particular object
02:20.08 fenn describing relationships between objects is not so easy
02:21.14 bjorkBSD with a mouse?
02:21.28 fenn although i have seen some cool ideas for a "directed graph" GUI using mostly mouse input
02:22.54 bjorkBSD hmm.
02:23.49 bjorkBSD i dunno, but i think a lot of the matters regarding interface design is too firmly focused on making it easier for newbies to get going.
02:24.21 bjorkBSD newbies like me, for instance :D
02:24.43 bjorkBSD one simply gets used to the interface after a while i think...
02:24.54 fenn interfaces should be self-documenting or you spend too much time reading documentation instead of playing around
02:25.19 bjorkBSD hmm.
02:25.34 fenn there's no reason i should have to look up what an rpp is
02:25.38 bjorkBSD playing around shouldn't be hindered, that's true.
02:25.45 bjorkBSD rpp? wtf is that?
02:25.48 fenn lol
02:26.25 bjorkBSD return polyplenum?
02:26.26 bjorkBSD what?
02:26.43 fenn regular perpendicular poly-something
02:26.45 fenn its a cube
02:27.00 bjorkBSD rpp?
02:27.02 bjorkBSD how does that stand for cube?
02:27.12 fenn exactly
02:27.28 fenn rectangular paralellepiped, sorry
02:27.35 bjorkBSD that makes sense.
02:27.55 bjorkBSD there's terminology associated with 3D that a user should be familiar with, i s'pose.
02:28.01 bjorkBSD so that's not a big deal at all.
02:28.22 bjorkBSD a nice glossary (and a wizard? heaven forbid! and hell too.) should help one along nicely :D
02:28.23 fenn i've never heard the term paralellepiped before brlcad
02:28.30 bjorkBSD i have.
02:28.38 fenn see i'm even spelling it wrong
02:31.30 brlcad it's the mathematical term for better or worse
02:32.12 fenn anyway my point was that the interface isnt self documenting
02:32.35 brlcad mged was never implemented to be user-friendly, self documenting, teaching or anything of the sort -- it was implemented with a very specific purpose in hand for a very specific environment
02:33.10 bjorkBSD fenn, c'mon.
02:33.15 brlcad for which it serves that purpose rather well with experts that can model things in it faster than the best large-scale cad systems
02:33.30 bjorkBSD must the interface be a solid geometry tutorial?
02:33.51 bjorkBSD i think with a basic understanding of the concepts behind it (SG), the interface can't be *that* obscure.
02:34.11 fenn bjorkBSD: a simple picture of an rpp would suffice
02:34.34 IriX64 solid geometry?
02:34.35 bjorkBSD that's true.
02:34.37 bjorkBSD yes IriX64
02:34.51 IriX64 thought it was a modeling system.
02:34.52 brlcad it's hard to justify spending tax payer dollars on features that make no sense for that environment (why write a tutorial when one of the core developers can give you personal attention on demand in considerably less time)
02:35.16 bjorkBSD That portion of geometry dealing with solids, as opposed to plane geometry. Solid geometry is concerned with polyhedra, spheres, three-dimensional solids, lines in three-space, planes, and so on.
02:35.26 bjorkBSD from wolfram ^
02:35.57 brlcad IriX64: it is a "system", hence all the command line tools -- meant to be used together, can pipe inputs/outputs ala cat, grep, sed, awk, etc
02:36.10 IriX64 my definition is simply draw it in 3d and fill it in to make it solid, wheres the *solid geometry come in?
02:36.14 bjorkBSD no one expects a text editor to be self-writing. one assumes the person using the text editor knows how to read and write.
02:36.19 fenn brlcad: i'm not complaining at all, bjorkBSD was asking what should be part of a "good" interface
02:37.13 IriX64 56^7=an ellipse, thats solid geometry if you apply it to 3 dimensions.
02:37.14 bjorkBSD and basic solid geometry - correct me if i'm wrong here - with boolean logic is the vocabulary of brl-cad.
02:37.26 brlcad glad to hear it, though it is a common gripe and misconception of the project either way not having been open source for very long
02:38.29 IriX64 err 5.6 *cough*
02:38.50 bjorkBSD brlcad, are my assumptions wrong?
02:39.25 brlcad bjorkBSD: not sure, what exactly is the assumption? something about the vocabulary?
02:39.37 bjorkBSD heheh
02:39.44 bjorkBSD solid geometry/boolean algebra.
02:39.45 brlcad the failing is that mged exposes the low-level code representation/names of object types
02:39.48 bjorkBSD oops. boolean logic.
02:39.52 brlcad rpp, arb8, sph, etc
02:39.57 bjorkBSD hmm okay .
02:40.01 brlcad you mean CSG?
02:40.05 bjorkBSD yeah
02:40.12 fenn brlcad: that's not necessarily a failing, as it makes it easier for potential developers to understand what is going on underneath
02:40.19 brlcad union, difference, intersection's pretty industry standard operations
02:40.46 fenn or script writers
02:40.59 brlcad fenn: true, though it goes both ways -- requires users to learn a lot more implementation detail than is really necessary for their task
02:42.13 bjorkBSD hmm.
02:44.38 bjorkBSD damn, i wish i could do something about the interface :D
02:46.46 bjorkBSD what does it take, brlcad ?
02:47.49 fenn learn a programming language, a GUI toolkit, and the BRL-CAD API and you're all set
02:48.11 brlcad skip to it! :)
02:48.26 bjorkBSD hehehhe.
02:48.32 bjorkBSD i'll get right on it.
02:48.35 bjorkBSD C you said?
02:48.49 brlcad hell, if you did the first two, I'd cater custom attention on the third
02:49.05 fenn i was thinking about a python UI with pygtk perhaps
02:49.26 bjorkBSD python?
02:49.31 bjorkBSD the tyranny of choice.
02:49.33 fenn people seem quite picky about toolkits for some reason
02:49.41 bjorkBSD how'bout a web interface? those are oh so popular :D
02:50.06 brlcad everyone seems to have religion when it comes to interface
02:50.44 bjorkBSD my belief (and i'm prepared to prove this with a bat) is that the docs MUST be read :D
02:51.01 bjorkBSD but please don't throw it in my face as i have no intention of reading 'em myself :D
02:51.17 fenn that's nice
02:51.45 bjorkBSD <PROTECTED>
02:52.53 fenn on the other hand i'm learning lisp right now and apparently it's a well known language in the cad field
02:53.04 bjorkBSD through autocad, yeah.
02:54.05 bjorkBSD CL can be very VERY unintuitive.
02:54.08 brlcad bjorkBSD: another league of experience to be learned from games -- there are some incredibly complex games out there, and rare a gamer that reads paper before ripping the disc out, installing, and playing
02:54.26 bjorkBSD brlcad, but the interface for games is fairly well known.
02:54.32 fenn hardly
02:54.40 bjorkBSD left right forwards backwards. and oh where's the shoot button? there!
02:54.42 bjorkBSD blam blam! :D
02:55.40 bjorkBSD but i see what you're saying.
02:55.43 fenn i guess it depends which games you play
02:55.57 bjorkBSD the shoot-em-ups are more or less the same.
02:56.00 bjorkBSD the driving games too.
02:56.09 bjorkBSD but a lot of people look up cheat codes. they read and memorize them.
02:56.35 brlcad don't necessarily mean fps games
02:57.06 fenn there are some horrendously complex mmorpg's these days
02:57.49 bjorkBSD hmmm.
02:57.55 fenn brlcad: do you have any preferences about GUI implementation?
02:58.17 brlcad carefully? :)
03:00.53 IriX64 the one that allows "push the button and make it happen"
03:01.35 IriX64 ls=senirity list prints etc.
03:01.41 IriX64 err seniority
03:01.50 brlcad fenn: mostly relating to efficiency taking precedence over preference or expectation
03:02.22 brlcad e.g. modalities in general bad, quasi-modes in general good
03:02.37 fenn could you explain what you mean by modality?
03:02.59 IriX64 doesnt go away when u press the mouse.
03:03.01 bjorkBSD eg: vi's modes, brlcad?
03:03.45 IriX64 system modal = nightmare.
03:03.59 fenn would you consider qcad's switching to the selection mode toolbar when you need to pick a point == a modality?
03:05.03 IriX64 fenn... qcad=?
03:05.11 fenn a 2d drafting program
03:05.17 IriX64 ty
03:05.17 bjorkBSD what about xfig's interface?
03:05.59 brlcad fenn: modalities in general change the behavior of a users interaction devices (e.g. a mouse) without direct feedback or on-going active request of that change
03:06.40 brlcad vi is a pretty extreme example where modalities done through and through can be efficient though making for a steep and opaque interface
03:07.10 fenn i've never learned how to use vi
03:07.17 bjorkBSD oh it's awesome!
03:07.19 fenn :q!
03:07.23 bjorkBSD tsk tsk :P
03:07.38 brlcad fenn: a selection mode toolbar isn't a modality in the classical sense since you are given active visual feedback through a change in your cursor device
03:07.39 bjorkBSD it's really neat. and ed is neater.
03:08.05 IriX64 so is edlin
03:08.08 IriX64 :)
03:08.21 IriX64 +e
03:08.29 brlcad the main downside of modalities isn't the mode itself but the potential and frequency of mode errors when you attempt operations outside that mode that could otherwise be expected
03:09.53 bjorkBSD edlin? it's a poor copy of ed!
03:10.05 bjorkBSD that's where the beep comes in.
03:10.08 IriX64 Mr Ed?
03:10.18 bjorkBSD or in ed's case, the almighty '?'
03:10.24 brlcad example modality error might be something like being in insert mode in vi, and attempting to delete a character while inserting by hitting the backspace key
03:10.46 IriX64 have you never seen mred?
03:10.55 IriX64 os/2 programmers editor.
03:11.25 bjorkBSD is it like ed?
03:11.53 IriX64 its beautiful, a graphical programmers editor doing just about anything you want.
03:12.06 IriX64 too bad he never ported it to windows.
03:12.11 brlcad the user must consciously change their locus of attention away from their desired task/operation (modifying some text in an editor) and consider the mode they are in while performing operations, with some modes being worse than others especially when you stop talking about editors and move towards gui modes
03:13.20 IriX64 if your curious check http://hobbes.nmsu.edu
03:14.00 brlcad if you're really interested, there are very compelling examples and discussion in "The Humane Interface" by Jef Raskin. good real world examples, academic research, and mathematical foundations of interface efficiency explained
03:14.15 fenn thanks for the reference
03:14.16 brlcad among a couple other books that are reference in raskin's book
03:14.17 bjorkBSD i've got the humane interface.
03:14.25 brlcad it's a quick read
03:14.38 bjorkBSD brlcad, have you ever used plan9?
03:14.50 fenn from OUTER SPACE
03:14.53 brlcad no, but i'm interested
03:15.39 bjorkBSD the main text editor on there's pretty cool.
03:15.44 brlcad raskin's ideas on a zoomable interface are some of the most interesting (and radical)
03:15.46 bjorkBSD it's called acme.
03:16.46 fenn i like using the scroll wheel for zooming
03:17.27 bjorkBSD i like the scroll wheel.
03:17.31 bjorkBSD pretty damned cool toy.
03:17.45 fenn there is definitely something to be said for auto-zoom to a particular object
03:17.47 bjorkBSD in rio, i use it for switching from screen to screen.
03:18.08 fenn (in addition to manual scrolling)
03:21.52 bjorkBSD hmmm.
03:21.54 fenn ah nice they actually have that book at my library
03:22.08 bjorkBSD hooray! the damned thing works now.
03:22.22 bjorkBSD there must be something wrong with pkg_add indeed.
03:22.36 IriX64 compilation time?
03:22.59 IriX64 don't tell ``Erik i asked ;)
03:24.47 bjorkBSD i have no idea.
03:24.51 bjorkBSD i was multitasking :D
03:25.04 bjorkBSD see, i use this new fangled unix thing...
03:25.06 IriX64 *read the summary.
03:25.42 IriX64 nfix eh :P
03:25.56 bjorkBSD ah it'd scrolled off.
03:25.59 bjorkBSD but here you go.
03:26.03 bjorkBSD Elapsed installation time: 4 minutes, 24 seconds
03:26.03 bjorkBSD Elapsed time since configuration: 2 hours, 7 minutes, 40 seconds
03:26.24 IriX64 urf a 286 :)
03:27.01 IriX64 i'm on my second run.
03:27.29 bjorkBSD second run of what?
03:27.32 IriX64 now go to modes->multi-pane and tell me what you see.
03:28.00 IriX64 compilation of course.
03:28.16 bjorkBSD second run? is this a sport for you? :))
03:28.31 IriX64 whats 18.2?
03:28.32 bjorkBSD multipanes.
03:28.39 bjorkBSD 4
03:28.55 IriX64 it let you do that without loading a database?
03:29.05 IriX64 urrrfffff
03:29.17 IriX64 thats a good bug ill leave it in.
03:30.40 IriX64 + <------ use your imagination as to what that represents.
03:30.54 IriX64 + = multipane
03:31.08 IriX64 ur,lr.ul,ll
03:31.36 IriX64 .=,
03:32.37 bjorkBSD what on earth?
03:32.47 bjorkBSD which database?
03:32.50 bjorkBSD it just worked
03:33.06 IriX64 load havoc.g
03:33.55 IriX64 brlcad: do i have a bug i can't find or is there something wrong when trying to do an e on terra contents?
03:34.05 IriX64 terra.g
03:34.56 IriX64 should be a way to check databases for integrity, sticky note applied.
03:35.04 bjorkBSD oh!
03:35.06 bjorkBSD i see now.
03:35.32 bjorkBSD '+' didn't work.
03:37.42 IriX64 which + key did you use they do different things :P
03:40.18 IriX64 say bjorkBSD does an upside down flag mean anything?
03:40.34 bjorkBSD hmm. not sure. but i thought it did.
03:40.45 bjorkBSD i know a flag flying at half mast means there's been a death.
03:40.55 IriX64 specialy on site.
03:41.12 IriX64 you type fast.
03:41.31 IriX64 :)
03:41.43 fenn raskin's zooming UI reminds me of the jurassic park interface
03:43.26 bjorkBSD that one's from irix, actually fenn.
03:43.39 fenn i know, i have the linux version right here :)
03:43.40 bjorkBSD but his zooming interface is different.
03:43.47 bjorkBSD the linux version?! whoa where?
03:45.32 bjorkBSD hmm. blender and brl-CAD. no overlaps right?
03:46.10 fenn bjorkBSD: http://fsv.sourceforge.net/
03:46.11 brlcad no, there are some .. just not in the fundamental criteria
03:46.43 brlcad about as much overlap as unigraphics overlaps with maya
03:47.48 brlcad fenn: raskin's book better talks about his ideas than his project that he started before his passing does imho
03:48.56 brlcad though the project was the beginning of an attempt to put one of the more radical ideas into practice, and has kicked off as a project on it's own
03:49.01 brlcad son's leading it iirc
03:51.06 IriX64 $ ERROR: NULL bu_mapped_file pointer, file g_dsp.c, line 3135
03:51.12 IriX64 ?????
03:51.33 IriX64 can't find this, only happens on terra.g
03:51.48 IriX64 get mapped file opne failed at load time.
03:51.53 IriX64 open too.
03:52.49 bjorkBSD i don't get that.
03:52.55 bjorkBSD do you open it from the shell?
03:52.57 IriX64 on terra?
03:53.07 IriX64 from the gui.
03:54.01 bjorkBSD hmm should i do it from there?
03:54.06 bjorkBSD i did it from the shell.
03:55.08 IriX64 10 mapped file open failed messages on mged window, and if i try to e terra.n_sm it bombs.
03:56.32 IriX64 havoc on the other hand displays beautifully.
03:58.51 IriX64 Requesting 16 cpus, only 1 available. Will use 1.
03:58.51 IriX64 BRL-CAD Release 10.0.0 The BRL-CAD Raytracer RT
03:58.51 IriX64 <PROTECTED>
03:58.51 IriX64 <PROTECTED>
03:58.51 IriX64 BRL-CAD Release 10.0.0 The BRL-CAD Ray-Tracing Library
03:59.25 *** join/#brlcad DTRemenak|RDP (n=DTRemena@c-24-23-59-104.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
04:01.02 bjorkBSD 10.0?
04:01.08 bjorkBSD i thought it was on 7.8.2?
04:01.35 IriX64 i don't release this stuff thats for my own use.
04:01.51 IriX64 stuff you want is on sourceforge.
04:02.15 IriX64 Requesting 16 cpus, only 1 available. Will use 1.
04:02.15 IriX64 BRL-CAD Release 10.0.0 The BRL-CAD Raytracer RT
04:02.16 IriX64 <PROTECTED>
04:02.16 IriX64 <PROTECTED>
04:02.16 IriX64 BRL-CAD Release 10.0.0 The BRL-CAD Ray-Tracing Library
04:02.25 IriX64 bah
04:02.34 IriX64 paste errrrffff.
04:04.07 brlcad you're good at that
04:04.26 IriX64 king of oop ill have you know :P
04:07.23 IriX64 SHOT: cpu = 6.469 sec, elapsed = 180.507 sec
04:07.25 IriX64 <PROTECTED>
04:07.27 IriX64 <PROTECTED>
04:07.29 IriX64 Additional mem=1507328., #malloc=891, #free=710, #realloc=31 (181 retained)
04:07.31 IriX64 3457429 solid/ray intersections: 772185 hits + 2685244 miss
04:07.33 IriX64 pruned 22.3%: 55 model RPP, 17251462 dups skipped, 5048503 solid RPP
04:07.35 IriX64 Frame 0: 476100 pixels in 6.47 sec = 73597.16 pixels/sec
04:07.37 IriX64 Frame 0: 502887 rays in 6.47 sec = 77737.98 rays/sec (RTFM)
04:07.39 IriX64 Frame 0: 502887 rays in 6.47 sec = 77737.98 rays/CPU_sec
04:07.41 IriX64 Frame 0: 502887 rays in 180.51 sec = 2785.97 rays/sec (wallclock)
04:07.43 IriX64 Raytrace complete.
04:09.42 IriX64 farg it need nicotine bbiab.
04:16.34 bjorkBSD holy shit! i just made a fucking tea cup! :x
04:18.07 bjorkBSD okay! i'm gonna need a gallon of coffee.
04:27.48 *** join/#brlcad MarioD (n=who@toronto-HSE-ppp4302174.sympatico.ca)
04:30.47 MarioD <IriX64> 3457429 solid/ray intersections: 772185 hits + 2685244 miss
04:30.47 MarioD <IriX64> pruned 22.3%: 55 model RPP, 17251462 dups skipped, 5048503 solid RPP
04:30.47 MarioD <IriX64> Frame 0: 476100 pixels in 6.47 sec = 73597.16 pixels/sec
04:30.47 MarioD <IriX64> Frame 0: 502887 rays in 6.47 sec = 77737.98 rays/sec (RTFM)
04:30.47 MarioD <IriX64> Frame 0: 502887 rays in 6.47 sec = 77737.98 rays/CPU_sec
04:30.47 MarioD <IriX64> Frame 0: 502887 rays in 180.51 sec = 2785.97 rays/sec (wallclock)
04:30.49 MarioD <IriX64> Raytrace complete.
04:31.02 MarioD ahhh
04:31.21 MarioD ill leave on my own, sorry all
04:31.36 bjorkBSD eh? what's the hurry?
08:58.00 *** join/#brlcad clock_ (n=clock@zux221-122-143.adsl.green.ch)
16:59.10 *** join/#brlcad ibot (i=ibot@pdpc/supporter/active/TimRiker/bot/apt)
16:59.10 *** topic/#brlcad is http://brlcad.org/ || BRL-CAD is an open source solid modeling software suite || Developers needed! Read the HACKING file for details on getting involved
17:53.51 *** join/#brlcad IriX64 (n=IriX64@toronto-HSE-ppp4304371.sympatico.ca)
17:54.13 IriX64 reville at 13:00 hrs hooo boy.
17:55.58 IriX64 havoc woke me up saying i'm ready to be rendered :)
17:56.13 IriX64 SHOT: cpu = 1.625 sec, elapsed = 9.773 sec
17:56.13 IriX64 <PROTECTED>
17:56.13 IriX64 <PROTECTED>
17:56.13 IriX64 Additional mem=1474560., #malloc=856, #free=706, #realloc=9 (150 retained)
17:56.14 IriX64 517310 solid/ray intersections: 229225 hits + 288085 miss
17:56.14 IriX64 pruned 44.3%: 376272 model RPP, 830955 dups skipped, 322967 solid RPP
17:56.16 IriX64 Frame 0: 476100 pixels in 1.62 sec = 292984.62 pixels/sec
17:56.18 IriX64 Frame 0: 480393 rays in 1.62 sec = 295626.46 rays/sec (RTFM)
17:56.20 IriX64 Frame 0: 480393 rays in 1.62 sec = 295626.46 rays/CPU_sec
17:56.22 IriX64 Frame 0: 480393 rays in 9.77 sec = 49155.12 rays/sec (wallclock)
17:56.24 IriX64 Raytrace complete.
17:57.21 IriX64 mged> ``Erik, can't touce your time tho :(
17:57.34 IriX64 err -mged
17:57.53 IriX64 touch too sigh.
17:59.07 IriX64 pick a database we'll compare notes.
18:03.09 IriX64 Low overhead scanline-per-CPU buffering
18:03.10 IriX64 SHOT: cpu = 3.734 sec, elapsed = 68.948 sec
18:03.10 IriX64 <PROTECTED>
18:03.10 IriX64 <PROTECTED>
18:03.10 IriX64 Additional mem=1495040., #malloc=859, #free=706, #realloc=13 (153 retained)
18:03.10 IriX64 949505 solid/ray intersections: 264717 hits + 684788 miss
18:03.12 IriX64 pruned 27.9%: 251771 model RPP, 3046044 dups skipped, 765668 solid RPP
18:03.14 IriX64 Frame 0: 476100 pixels in 3.73 sec = 127504.02 pixels/sec
18:03.16 IriX64 Frame 0: 481160 rays in 3.73 sec = 128859.13 rays/sec (RTFM)
18:03.19 IriX64 Frame 0: 481160 rays in 3.73 sec = 128859.13 rays/CPU_sec
18:03.20 IriX64 Frame 0: 481160 rays in 68.95 sec = 6978.59 rays/sec (wallclock)
18:03.22 IriX64 Raytrace complete.
18:03.27 IriX64 wonder how much of this you'll tolerate :)
18:04.34 IriX64 ill stop now it's just that im so excited.
18:05.11 IriX64 bjorkBSD how's your effort coming along?
18:07.04 IriX64 come... it's real, you pick the database file ill post the shot times.
18:07.36 IriX64 except for terra.g im still trying to figure that one out.
18:09.05 IriX64 Requesting 16 cpus, only 1 available. Will use 1.
18:09.06 IriX64 BRL-CAD Release 10.0.0 The BRL-CAD Raytracer RT
18:09.06 IriX64 <PROTECTED>
18:09.06 IriX64 <PROTECTED>
18:09.06 IriX64 BRL-CAD Release 10.0.0 The BRL-CAD Ray-Tracing Library
18:09.06 IriX64 <PROTECTED>
18:09.08 IriX64 <PROTECTED>
18:09.10 IriX64 BRL-CAD Release 10.0.0 The BRL-CAD Numerical Computation Library
18:09.12 IriX64 <PROTECTED>
18:09.14 IriX64 <PROTECTED>
18:09.16 IriX64 BRL-CAD Release 10.0.0 The BRL-CAD Utility Library
18:09.18 IriX64 <PROTECTED>
18:09.20 IriX64 <PROTECTED>
18:10.58 IriX64 WARNING: Compile-time debugging is enabled and may limit performance
18:12.17 IriX64 may I share my effort?
18:13.27 IriX64 ill try to ftp it to ftp://ftp.brlcad.org again.
18:15.40 IriX64 keeps aborting blah.
18:19.18 IriX64 trying again.
18:27.08 IriX64 mirrored floors? :)
18:31.17 IriX64 not bad for a 2.4ghz cpu.
18:34.34 IriX64 a 6hr xfer, can you wait orshould i abort it?
19:32.50 CIA-9 BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * 10brlcad/src/libbu/linebuf.c: make linux less unhappy, setlinebuf() apparently returns void on linux so prefer to use setvbuf() when available so we can catch any error
19:33.14 brlcad IriX64: just what ARE you doing...
19:33.34 brlcad really is no need to keep pasting that much stuff... :)
19:34.32 brlcad the rtfm line is the main useful one, though your wallclock time is incredibly skewed..
19:36.20 brlcad it shouldn't be that far off of the rtfm count, implies something else is seriously taking up time on your system ..
19:48.41 *** join/#brlcad clock_ (i=clock@84-72-94-1.dclient.hispeed.ch)
19:49.11 bjorkBSD IriX64, i'm gonna do the teacup again, this time i'll watch what happens carefully.
19:49.30 bjorkBSD brb
19:50.02 clock_ brlcad: surfboard rulez!
19:51.52 *** join/#brlcad bjorkBSD (n=bjork@ip70-178-169-173.ks.ks.cox.net)
19:51.53 brlcad ok
19:55.25 IriX64 thanks brlcad i'll bring up task manager and check it ;)
19:55.56 IriX64 teacup which database is it?
19:56.10 IriX64 ah the tutorial i c.
19:56.36 bjorkBSD yeah.
19:56.39 IriX64 brlcad's being polite, read screwed for scewed :)
19:56.52 bjorkBSD IriX64, what are you doing?
19:56.59 bjorkBSD i keep seeing brlcad 10.0.0
19:57.21 IriX64 told you thats for my benifit.
19:58.49 bjorkBSD <PROTECTED>
19:58.53 bjorkBSD c'mon! fess up. i seem to be on version 7.
19:59.53 IriX64 as long as i don't spread this stuff around i can play with it to my hearts content, im just playing with the version number to test something else bjorkBSD.
20:00.23 IriX64 and you don't know what version you are on? :)
20:10.23 IriX64 Frame 0: 476100 rays in 0.53 sec = 896610.17 rays/sec (RTFM)
20:10.38 IriX64 Fthis bldg391 on v9.0.4 brlcad.
20:10.57 IriX64 default scale.
20:11.23 bjorkBSD oh i see. are you a brl developer?
20:11.38 bjorkBSD i'm on 7.8.2
20:12.08 IriX64 why did you guys hard code the resources directories man? (duh goof thats the way it evolved)
20:12.16 IriX64 :)
20:12.50 IriX64 no bjorkBSD i am not a devloper more of a lone wolf.
20:13.18 IriX64 ooooowwwwwwwwwwoooooooooooooo :) (lunch)
20:13.35 bjorkBSD i see.
20:13.42 bjorkBSD doesn't brl remind you of logo?
20:13.46 IriX64 truly?
20:15.41 bjorkBSD it's an ancient language.
20:15.53 IriX64 should tie it to --prefix the resources directories i mean.
20:17.30 IriX64 computer language?
20:18.33 IriX64 BRL-CAD Release 9.0.4 The BRL-CAD Raytracer RT
20:18.44 IriX64 happy bjorkBSD?
20:19.40 IriX64 WARNING: Compile-time debugging is enabled and may limit performance
20:19.58 IriX64 time for a speedy gonzales build ill bbiab.
20:20.28 bjorkBSD it's coming down :D
20:21.07 IriX64 ?
20:21.15 IriX64 the cup?
20:21.50 bjorkBSD no. your version numbers.
20:22.03 IriX64 fell back a few builds.
20:22.36 bjorkBSD interesting.
20:22.40 IriX64 ./autogen.sh love it:)
20:25.37 brlcad IriX64: the resources directory isn't hard coded
20:27.41 IriX64 but it comes up and says this build expects resources to be at .....
20:29.24 IriX64 never mind... you are correct.
20:29.41 bjorkBSD IriX64, i encountered that problem because i had brlcad in my .cshrc path
20:29.48 bjorkBSD BRLCAD_ROOT ie.
20:30.15 IriX64 i encountered it because i have six directories on the go.
20:31.22 IriX64 bear in mind i dont play with path here or dirset.
20:38.25 *** join/#brlcad DTRemenak (n=DTRemena@c-24-23-59-104.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
20:43.36 brlcad it uses a search path ordering to find the data resources, where the BRLCAD_ROOT/DATA environment variables override if they exist
20:44.08 brlcad the windows binaries basically don't do the proper searching yet, so they report an error even though the resources are found
20:44.45 IriX64 windows binaries?
20:47.13 brlcad if you're not running windows binaries, then that error probably means something wasn't compiled/installed correctly as the output suggests
20:47.51 IriX64 truth (how do i make the pedestal of trvth in ascii) :)
20:49.21 brlcad ___
20:49.22 brlcad \
20:49.26 brlcad \/ \
20:49.43 IriX64 :)
20:49.45 brlcad oh well
20:49.57 IriX64 harder than a cow :)
20:50.20 brlcad <PROTECTED>
20:50.23 brlcad <PROTECTED>
20:50.31 brlcad there we go
20:50.40 IriX64 thats better i can stand on it.
20:50.51 IriX64 errr you can stand on it.
21:00.27 ValarQ <PROTECTED>
21:00.27 ValarQ <PROTECTED>
21:00.27 ValarQ <PROTECTED>
21:00.27 ValarQ <PROTECTED>
21:00.58 ValarQ cows sure are easier :)
21:01.04 IriX64 applause... its been years since ive seen that :)
21:01.37 IriX64 <ValarQ> ,__,
21:01.37 IriX64 <ValarQ> (oo)____
21:01.37 IriX64 <ValarQ> (__) )\
21:01.38 IriX64 <ValarQ> ||--|| *
21:01.38 IriX64 <ValarQ> cows sure are easier :)
21:01.38 IriX64 <IriX64> applause... its been years since ive seen that :)
21:01.43 IriX64 <PROTECTED>
21:02.01 ValarQ you sure like to flood this channel :P
21:02.19 IriX64 never kicks me tho i must lead a charmed life :)
21:02.51 IriX64 or the bot is someone I know.
21:03.19 ValarQ you haven't thought about switching to irssi?
21:03.34 IriX64 where do i get it?
21:03.51 brlcad yes, the pastes of what other people have already written in particular is getting annoying :P
21:03.52 ValarQ the local ports system or at http://irssi.org/
21:04.14 IriX64 ty and point taken brlcad :)
21:04.19 ValarQ irssi is clever in that it asks when pasting many lines
21:04.32 IriX64 so does mirc.
21:04.41 ValarQ never used mirc actually
21:05.19 ValarQ btw, can you run mirc on 64bit Irix? :P
21:05.27 brlcad irssi is pretty sweet
21:06.46 ValarQ i say like they do with mutt, it's the least bad client out there :)
21:09.43 CIA-9 BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * 10brlcad/configure.ac: check for the sys/un.h header in order to stop using the HAVE_UNIX_DOMAIN_SOCKETS define
21:10.27 IriX64 blargh actually expects gcc doesnt honour the cc variable, be ashamed irssi :)
21:10.54 CIA-9 BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * 10brlcad/src/libpkg/pkg.c: s/HAVE_UNIX_DOMAIN_SOCKETS/HAVE_SYS_UN_H/g now that there is a new check in configure.ac
21:22.59 IriX64 brb
21:23.52 *** join/#brlcad IriX64 (n=IriX64@toronto-HSE-ppp4304371.sympatico.ca)
21:24.12 IriX64 ValarQ so? :)
21:24.33 IriX64 lets tru paste :P
21:24.38 IriX64 try too.
21:25.54 IriX64 Elapsed installation time: 7 minutes, 17 seconds
21:25.55 IriX64 Elapsed time since configuration: 42 minutes, 48 seconds
21:26.05 IriX64 couldnt resist :P
21:30.13 IriX64 dunno what ails perl support tho looking for irc dir and fails *shrug*
21:33.25 IriX64 smoke break bbiab
21:35.46 bjorkBSD brb
21:52.42 IriX64 i never could draw :)
22:04.31 IriX64 brb
22:14.26 *** join/#brlcad IriX64 (n=IriX64@toronto-HSE-ppp4304371.sympatico.ca)
22:17.17 IriX64 ValorQ wheres the help screen in this thing.
22:17.29 IriX64 err ValarQ
22:17.52 ValarQ dunno
22:18.02 IriX64 thing being irssi :)
22:18.10 ValarQ try /help
22:18.27 IriX64 tried /help.
22:20.53 ValarQ http://irssi.org/documentation/manual maybe :)
22:21.23 IriX64 maybe if i talk to it :)
22:21.48 IriX64 no need im not a warrior or anything.
22:22.57 IriX64 smoke break again.
22:36.32 ``Erik heh
23:12.58 IriX64 thank you ValorQ an interesting freaking cadillac of irc clients :)
23:13.09 IriX64 err ValarQ too.
23:15.30 IriX64 ./who_am_i doesn't work ;)
23:16.08 IriX64 but this is not the channel to discuss the relative merits or lack of same in.
23:16.43 IriX64 cd /usr/brlcad/bin
23:19.12 IriX64 is sphflake the royal orb of Russia?
23:34.18 *** join/#brlcad DTRemenak (n=DTRemena@c-24-23-59-104.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
23:58.59 ``Erik it's just a recursive application of spheres...

Generated by irclog2html.pl by Jeff Waugh - find it at freshmeat.net! Modified by Tim Riker to work with blootbot logs, split per channel, etc.