irclog2html for #brlcad on 20061127

01:52.16 Maloeran http://www.cjcc.com/Images/funny%20picts/When%20Your%20SysAdmin%20Is%20Bored.jpg
01:54.26 ``Erik nice
01:55.34 brlcad hah
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17:09.56 Maloeran Cool, there's progress from Survice for the immigration visa demand. Though... From this lengthy paperwork and exchanges with lawyers, I didn't realize it would imply more than a couple thousands in fees for them o.O
17:10.13 ``Erik heh
17:10.21 ``Erik probably in the neighborhood of 20k used?
17:10.22 ``Erik usd
17:10.26 ``Erik *shrug*
17:10.40 clock_ Who's immigrating into the US?
17:10.56 Maloeran No clear idea, but they hired people at 265USD/hour to work on it
17:11.10 ``Erik bear in mind... every single cost to them for you... all of everything they're paying, they're making at least twice that much in profit.
17:11.20 Maloeran clock_: I am, or at least I think I am. I'm presently working from Canada
17:11.28 ``Erik clock: work is work...
17:11.44 ``Erik and bush and his ass clowns will be gone in a bit... jan '09, WOOOOOOO!!!!
17:11.53 clock_ Is it possible to work on BRL-CAD from Hawaii?
17:12.29 Maloeran ``Erik, do you mean that the ARL is covering all these costs?
17:12.33 ``Erik you can work on brl-cad from anywhere.. getting paid to work on brl-cad all depends on the vehicle for the work order
17:13.03 ``Erik mal: arl is paying a snotload, which probably easily covers all of their expenses, plus they'll have you work on shit they sell to other companies
17:13.35 ``Erik trust me, if you weren't giving them a non-neglegible profit, they would not bother with you. They're doing what they're doing to maximize profit. nothing else.
17:14.23 ``Erik if you were actually costing them money in the long run, your contract would be gone and someone would probably be fired in the mgmt chain there :)
17:14.41 ``Erik business is as business does
17:15.37 Maloeran Right, okay. I guess I'll never know how big a piece of the cake Survice is grabbing on the way ;)
17:16.22 ``Erik the general rule of thumb in industry is that you see about 1/3 of the billing rate
17:16.22 brlcad you really don't want to know that
17:17.11 ``Erik and for 'regular' employees, the cost to company is about 2.4x gross salary
17:18.52 ``Erik <-- has a perverse interest in the numbers o.O also enjoys things like dan wheelers "sloccount"
17:19.48 ``Erik money is a tool
17:19.51 ``Erik a very real one
17:19.59 ``Erik and I like understanding tools
17:20.12 ``Erik programming languages and os's are tools
17:20.33 ``Erik brlcad is a tool, but I gave up on understanding him... brlcad is as brlcad does. ;)
17:20.34 brlcad I mean as a contractor, it's usually not a good idea to know what your charging rate is.. mutually to you and your company
17:20.36 Maloeran I think I vaguely understand economics, but I don't understand the appeal of profit maximization
17:21.00 ``Erik public companies have a contractual obligation to maximize profit.
17:21.20 brlcad aside from the politics of the rate and fact that it can be daunting to realize how much they take ;)
17:21.35 ``Erik short term profit, even. :/ quarterly dividends to stock holders, etc
17:21.44 brlcad ~dict tool
17:22.01 Maloeran I don't really want to know, brlcad, I just realize it can cover extra expenses. Believe it or not, I was worried for a moment
17:22.20 brlcad yeah, it can cover whatever the heck they want it to cover
17:22.23 brlcad within legalities
17:22.25 ``Erik mal: they will let you know that you have something to worry about well before you have something to worry about
17:22.58 ``Erik your interest is coding, they know that... keep coding, and enjoy the creature comforts the paychecks afford you
17:23.07 ``Erik and don't worry about the bs
17:23.29 Maloeran Okay, sounds like a good deal to me :)
17:24.27 ``Erik if they realize you're reasonably competent, you'll be golden as long as you don't do something idiotic
17:24.36 ``Erik like smear the ceo's office in feces
17:25.02 ``Erik unfortunately, many non-technical people judge technical competency by the degree held...
17:25.15 ``Erik so even if you think it's stupid, it *IS* in your best interest to get at least a bs
17:26.05 ``Erik (and when you apply to a job... the very first people who see your resume are nontechnical hr people... no degree? it'll never get to the technical people who can recognize skill and ability.)
17:27.05 Maloeran I just want to do what I enjoy, and that is coding. If I were unable to keep on doing that for a living, I'll do something else part-time with plenty of free time again
17:27.10 ``Erik a friend of mine who worked as a mgr for intel... was trying to get a russian dude into their chip design team... had a bitch of a time fighting with hr because the dude didn't have a degree, even though he was a wizard at ic design and when they got him in, he did awesome things... but no degree, so there was a stigma
17:27.19 Maloeran But I really don't think I want to go to school again
17:27.43 ``Erik sometimes we have to do a little of what we dont' want to in order to do a lot of what we do want to. :(
17:29.46 ``Erik I dropped out of college cuz it was stupid in '95... I dropped back in because I realized that the piece of paper was actually important...
17:29.55 Maloeran For what you speak of, Erik, does it take "any bs" or something related to the job?
17:30.01 ``Erik I went back KNOWING that I'd learn nothing new, it was just a hoop jumping exercise...
17:30.12 ``Erik but I actually learned quite a bit after the first 2 yrs of newbie crap
17:30.13 Maloeran I could see myself studying something completely unrelated to programming
17:30.21 ``Erik the last 2 yrs were .. engaging
17:30.24 ``Erik eye opening :)
17:31.12 ``Erik uhmmm, in general, I think "any old bs" will do, but I THINK you'd be surprised at the holes in your knowlege if you did pursue a cs, math, or physics degree
17:31.39 Maloeran Oh yes, but that's the fun part :), I want to struggle filling these holes myself, with nothing but a sheet of paper and a pen
17:31.40 ``Erik I mean, english or music probably won't advance your mind TOO much in the field of interest
17:31.51 ``Erik heh
17:31.56 Maloeran A bs in music theory or french poetry could be nice
17:32.02 ``Erik you'll still struggle, and there'll be paper and pen...
17:32.16 ``Erik but you get the advantage of something saying "here is a hole"
17:32.27 ``Erik instead of going through life clumsily working around it because you dont' know it exists
17:33.02 ``Erik I d'no, I went into school all cocky and arrogant, I was humbled by dr shade. and I think I'm far better at what I do now because of it
17:33.45 ``Erik I want to do grad school, I just hope I can find a professor who can make me feel totally idiotic so I can grow even more :)
17:34.10 Maloeran :) Yes, that should be nice. I had... different experiences
17:34.36 ``Erik my highschool was a joke, and the first two years of college were laughable.
17:34.54 Maloeran The last day I went to college, I had proven my physic teacher wrong with the Hawking book I had at hand and was thrown out of the class ; never went again
17:34.55 ``Erik but there'll be a "wheat and chaff" course... mine was csc 324
17:35.18 ``Erik once you hit that point, you're either a cs person, someone struggling to get a grade, or a dropout.
17:35.40 Maloeran As I said, I could see myself studying something that interests me yet that I know little about
17:35.48 Maloeran Eheh
17:35.55 ``Erik I don't think being thrown out of class fofr disproving a teacher would be acceptable at any college around here
17:35.55 ``Erik :(
17:36.15 ``Erik I mean, I woulda gone to the dean and made my argument
17:36.32 ``Erik also; the dude made some good beer ;)
17:36.32 Maloeran I was fed up with school enough at that point not to bother
17:36.45 ``Erik I THINK he went to be the dean at chico
17:36.55 Maloeran Ahah, I see
17:37.14 ``Erik even as a hoop jumping exercise, though, it'll make your life a little easier
17:38.12 Maloeran A degree in music would be appealing to me, I think
17:38.13 ``Erik being a professional developer without a bs is like, uh... coding c... on windows... without knowing anything about the preprocessor...
17:38.15 ``Erik :)
17:38.28 ``Erik a buddy of mine in college was doing a dual major of cs and music
17:38.31 ``Erik *shrug*
17:38.43 ``Erik and the lower level cs courses, I tested out of
17:39.09 ``Erik I was able to prove that I knew what they wanted to teach me, and they removed teh requirement
17:39.39 Maloeran Eheh, nice
17:40.36 Maloeran I composed music younger, played violin for a decade and in an orchestra, a bs in music/poetry could be great
17:40.37 ``Erik *shrug* I think it's worth doing if you want to code for a living. there'll be a couple years of borign stupid shit. then you might learn something new *shrug* and at the end, life'll be that much easier
17:41.05 ``Erik getting someone else to pay for a coder to get a music degree could be tricky ;)
17:41.23 Maloeran Oh right, it's costly down there :)
17:41.35 ``Erik depends on what school
17:41.54 ``Erik I think I was paying ~$2000 a year? I dont' remember anymore
17:42.13 ``Erik most of it is covered if you're a "resident"
17:42.19 Maloeran Ah, not that bad, close to the fees in Canada then
17:42.29 ``Erik I woulda paid more than 3x if I wasn't a state resident
17:42.45 ``Erik (whcih means having lived in the state for at least 2 yrs or something)
17:43.01 ``Erik then most of it was paid through state taxes
17:43.29 ``Erik heh
17:43.35 ``Erik or how his predecessor would feel? :)
17:43.53 Maloeran :) Eheh
17:49.00 ``Erik <-- recently picked up on the observation that most coders are music o.O
17:49.21 ``Erik I think I jabbered about it at vis?
17:49.31 ``Erik musical
17:49.32 ``Erik even
17:49.52 Maloeran Not that I recall, you played an instrument or composed?
17:50.03 Maloeran Music is highly creative, I don't think programming is that much different
17:50.14 ``Erik guitar, trombone and keyboards... and I've written songs on the guitar
17:50.26 ``Erik justin plays keyboards... jason plays clarinet
17:50.49 Maloeran Neat
17:51.20 ``Erik and I was more into electric organ than piano, heh, difference in HOW you hit the keys
17:52.41 ``Erik <-- tends ot have a very soft touch when playing music... or typing *shurg* wants a responsive soft instrument
17:52.43 Maloeran I should have sticked with piano at school when the time came to choose our instrument that we would play for the next 7 years
17:53.15 ``Erik electric guitars playing "lazy/slurred" for the most part... well oiled trombone slide... low resistance keyboard or electric organ
17:53.54 brlcad http://www.experts-exchange.com/Web/Q_22031739.html
17:54.11 ``Erik keyboards I dig are the c64 inductance kbd, mitsumi precision 'bubble' kbd, and teh apple kbd's...
17:54.20 ``Erik can't STAND those ibm clicky monstrosities
17:54.22 brlcad pretty sure his wording just sucked .. I would gather he wants repeatable random numbers, i.e. ability to set the seed .. but pretty damn funny regardless ;)
17:54.53 ``Erik heh
17:55.40 ``Erik REAL repeatable random numbers are nontrivial... given that I can take the see from, say, a linux x86 box to say, an osX ppc box and get a totally different sequence
17:55.57 Maloeran I'm not so sure, brlcad, there are people that clueless ;). if( rand() < 0.5*RAND_MAX ) {} if( rand() > 0.5*RAND_MAX ) {}
17:55.58 ``Erik but on the same os/arch, srand() is good 'nuff
17:56.14 ``Erik hah
17:56.42 ``Erik hwer'ed ya see that?
17:56.56 Maloeran It was posted in #C some time ago, that code was actually found in a commercial environement
17:57.07 Maloeran It was supposed to pick one of the branches "randomly"
17:57.07 ``Erik I mean, if there's a 50% chance of A *AND* a 50% of B, then yeah, that might be right
17:57.16 ``Erik oh, if that was the intent, yeah, hah :)
17:57.31 ``Erik 'else' is hard.
17:58.03 ``Erik at least they did 0.5*RANDMAX instead of %2
17:58.19 Maloeran I simplified the code for it to fit on a line, it was actually a mess
17:58.23 ``Erik (most rng's have the most significant bits as the most random)
17:58.30 Maloeran Some broken conversion to float with comparison with 0.5
17:58.58 ``Erik rand() < 0.5*(float)rand()
17:59.00 ``Erik *shrug*
17:59.11 Maloeran I'm amazed by the amount of bad programmers, it's worth crying in #C sometimes
17:59.18 Maloeran Efnet's #C that is
17:59.37 ``Erik remember; half the people you meet are below average.
17:59.54 Maloeran Below the median, perhaps not below the average
18:00.12 ``Erik and the ones who are able to grok things will look things up and learn themselves some... so you hear from the dumb ones most
18:00.21 ``Erik just like politics and fcc 'decency' rap
18:00.22 Maloeran Right.
18:00.22 ``Erik crap
18:00.27 ``Erik ok
18:00.31 ``Erik median, not average, you're right
18:00.42 ``Erik but I was quoting
18:00.43 ``Erik :/
18:01.30 Maloeran :) Okay. I'm especially amazed by how people can struggle to understand pointers
18:01.35 ``Erik (because most people don't understand the difference between median and average)
18:01.51 ``Erik hehehe, I like pointers
18:03.24 Maloeran now*
18:03.38 Maloeran Putting high-school or not, that is the question
18:04.09 ``Erik hrm
18:04.14 ``Erik contact mark
18:04.21 ``Erik he'll talk to the lawyers or whatever for you
18:05.00 Maloeran Sure, they gave me that form to fill up. Ah well
18:07.14 ``Erik (the stigma of no bachelors...)
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22:48.46 brlcad Maloeran: freenode's #C isn't much different
22:49.48 brlcad there's even a resident troll that likes to badger the newbies
22:50.29 brlcad at least he was there a couple years ago, he wasn't even that well informed, but moreso than the others that would speak up so he often had the mic on the newbies
22:52.23 Maloeran Eheh, I see you have actively participated in such channels too
22:53.32 brlcad only mildly, usually through referral
22:54.31 brlcad someone would come into a different channel asking basic coding questions, and I'd refer them elsewhere.. only to have them return after being told rather unconstructively how stupid they were by elitist a**holes
22:55.04 brlcad so I periodically would wander over to put them in their place, tell them to either help or stfu
22:55.12 Maloeran Yes, that's the kind of situation that "forces" me to provide some actual help
22:55.52 ``Erik heh
22:55.58 Maloeran I apparently have been doing that long enough to get op in #opengl, #c and #asm ; probably not a good sign
22:55.59 ``Erik I'm happy to provide C advice
22:56.06 brlcad what's a pointer?
22:56.08 ``Erik but I mostly focused on specialized channels... like #opengl
22:56.22 ``Erik to avoid the straight up newbs
22:56.35 brlcad lots of straight up newbs hit bz
22:56.52 ``Erik I've been ignoring #opengl for the most part lately :/
22:56.58 brlcad so I refer them if it's not a trivial question or they are just missing too much foundation
22:57.23 Maloeran #opengl has been decaying since all the regulars fled to #siggraph because our debates were "off topic"
22:57.28 brlcad though I do tutor a couple specific individuals that showed great interest, talent, and progress
22:59.10 *** join/#brlcad Twingy (n=justin@74.92.144.217)
22:59.13 ``Erik heh
23:05.18 ``Erik O:-)
23:06.55 ``Erik which is almost the point of stopping and doing something actually useful *cough*
23:09.50 Twingy sean, those papers are signed
23:10.37 Maloeran Eheh, lacking motivation Erik? I myself wish I still had the motivation I had at 12-16 years old, it weakened a bit
23:10.48 ``Erik heh
23:10.55 ``Erik I wish i still had the motivation I had at 26.
23:10.57 ``Erik :(
23:12.03 Twingy what's with you guys :)
23:12.08 brlcad Twingy: cool
23:12.28 brlcad shame couldn't get public release on them, but meh, it's something
23:13.02 brlcad Maloeran: heh, if you're talking like that already.. then you really only have downhill to go :)
23:13.07 Twingy I was tempted to pick up the papers and flip through them like a 19th century picture movie
23:13.39 Maloeran Aw brlcad :). Seriously, it was not healthy. I was forgetting to eat, to sleep and go to school just to code
23:13.55 Twingy the key to motivation is diversity
23:14.21 Twingy for me anyway
23:14.23 ``Erik diversity only takes ya so far in my experience :/
23:14.41 Twingy depends on what your goals in life are
23:15.07 Twingy to become an expert in a field, to become well known, to become utilitarian...
23:15.33 Maloeran I still enjoy solving problems just as much. The issue, I think, is that the problems have grown complex and that the solutions take a long while to code up properly
23:15.49 Twingy mmm booty
23:15.53 ``Erik hhahaha
23:16.14 ``Erik dsl's are the art of turning complex problems into simple problems.
23:16.46 Maloeran The problems I was solving at 12-16 years old took very little time to code once solved. The current raytracing problems? Gah!! :)
23:17.47 Maloeran Erik, what do you mean by dsl there?
23:17.56 Twingy damn small linux of course
23:17.57 ``Erik domain specific language
23:18.06 Maloeran Ah, right
23:18.46 ``Erik deep dependancy chains, hard deadlines, and the "probably good enough" minimal ordering
23:20.38 Twingy I am displeased with how brakes are engineered for most bikes
23:20.51 ``Erik what, the rim calipers?
23:20.56 Twingy yea
23:21.02 Twingy all they're missing is two springs
23:21.06 Twingy two springs!!!
23:21.08 ``Erik well
23:21.10 Twingy and they'd be 10x better
23:21.11 ``Erik do it better
23:21.13 brlcad you want hydraulic brakes on your bike?
23:21.15 ``Erik and apply for a patent
23:21.21 ``Erik and get fucktarded rich
23:21.22 Twingy no, I'm going to do that this weekend
23:21.23 ``Erik o.O
23:21.25 Twingy it'll take 2 minutes
23:21.31 Twingy I have my old mountain bike back
23:21.41 Twingy the one I used to ride to work at Skyhigh the ISP on in high school
23:21.56 brlcad ooh, Hero tonight
23:22.34 brlcad or heros or whatever it's called
23:22.38 brlcad good stuff
23:22.41 Twingy hiros?
23:22.45 Twingy food network?
23:22.47 Twingy :)
23:22.47 brlcad hiro nakamura
23:22.55 Twingy hirosushima?
23:23.02 ``Erik heh
23:23.03 brlcad mm.. sushi
23:23.24 ``Erik neko ga tabemasuka?
23:23.28 Twingy naggasagonnaworkherenomore
23:23.35 brlcad heh
23:23.59 brlcad the korean shop has some
23:24.17 ``Erik heh
23:24.23 ``Erik I might stop there on my drive tomorrie
23:24.29 ``Erik you're talking about the one in beards hill, right?
23:24.37 brlcad next to kleins
23:25.37 ``Erik <-- forgets which big grocery store is in beards hill? knows there's a pizza shop, radiocrap, pet store, lees hunan, home despot, ...
23:25.46 ``Erik :)
23:25.51 Twingy I bet that pet stores has some of my mice still
23:26.01 ``Erik "he knows just how I like my martini... full of alcohol"
23:26.23 ``Erik but I did just buy a hugeassed bag of rice :D
23:26.28 ``Erik ginormous
23:26.42 Twingy making saki?
23:26.46 Twingy sake
23:26.46 ``Erik heh, no
23:27.06 ``Erik bought me up a rice maker
23:27.41 Twingy riceroni
23:27.56 Twingy if you bought a rice maker
23:27.59 Twingy why buy rice?
23:28.04 Twingy ooh that reminds me
23:28.09 Twingy I need to pick up cans tomorrow
23:28.11 ``Erik heh
23:28.24 Twingy I can make one out of aluminum
23:29.29 Twingy soon I will have enough to begin rocket motor
23:29.46 Twingy the diet pepsi motor
23:30.06 ``Erik out of aluminum?
23:30.20 ``Erik won't the throat temperature be... destructive?
23:30.29 ``Erik what's the term that dude used, ummm
23:30.49 ``Erik spontanious rapid disassembly?
23:31.05 Twingy not unless your wok is running at 1250F
23:31.14 Twingy most woks are at like 500 no?
23:31.27 ``Erik <-- meant for a rocket motor
23:31.36 Twingy ah, for a naive one sure
23:31.42 ``Erik which, from the courses I've been to, like in the neighborhood of 2000f
23:31.44 ``Erik *shrug*
23:32.08 Twingy depends on how you configure it
23:32.12 Twingy and what propellants
23:32.26 Twingy and whether you got heat fins on it
23:32.58 ``Erik yeah *shrug* confuration they're talking is 'how much thrust can I get out of one shot of this thing"
23:33.22 ``Erik <-- cooks himslef up some green beans
23:34.53 ``Erik seriously, you're in teh same directorate as a guru in the subject
23:38.55 Twingy there's probly a bunch of guru's here on the subject
23:39.04 Twingy not going to get involved with them though
23:39.15 Twingy that way I can't claim any affiliation
23:39.24 ``Erik aight *shrug*
23:39.26 Twingy or implementation of propietary knowledge
23:39.49 ``Erik there's one I've talked to a couple times who is supposedly *THE* guy, but I'll shut up on it :)
23:40.22 Twingy I don't see how his background would help me on such small primitive motors which I have a firm grasp on
23:40.36 Twingy he'd be the guy to talk to if I was building an Atlas IV maybe
23:41.07 ``Erik actually, 4" liquid motors... and they're disturbingly similar to my showerhead thingy, which woulda failed if I understand correctly
23:41.08 ``Erik :)
23:41.48 Twingy still think you should have tried it
23:42.32 ``Erik if I understand correctly, the biggest problem would've been how I attached the input nozzles int he upper chamber, those'll blow out
23:42.48 ``Erik otherwise, the throat wasn't small enough, the choke would've bene subsonic
23:42.52 ``Erik or it'd go through fuel like mad
23:42.53 ``Erik heh
23:43.57 ``Erik oh, and how I attached teh injectors, heh, has been patented. :(
23:47.06 Twingy everything has been patented so what?
23:47.26 ``Erik heh, yeah. modern patents have killed innovation.
23:47.27 ``Erik :(
23:47.52 Twingy nah
23:48.08 Twingy you can still innovate on your own, no gastapo gonna come after you unless you make $$$
23:50.34 Maloeran That didn't work for the open source developpers in the states who were sued for such infringement
23:52.43 Twingy that's why you go anonymous and host offshore :)
23:52.55 Twingy *spoken like a loyal federal employee*

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