| 02:15.55 | *** join/#brlcad b0ef (n=b0ef@084202024060.customer.alfanett.no) | |
| 03:21.04 | CIA-5 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * 10brlcad/ (include/on_nurb.h src/librt/g_on_nurb.c): standard header and footer, M-x indent region |
| 03:21.46 | CIA-5 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * 10brlcad/ (include/Makefile.am src/librt/Makefile.am): add new opennurbs primitive files to the source distribution tarball. |
| 04:19.41 | *** join/#brlcad IriX64 (n=IriX64@bas3-sudbury98-1168055775.dsl.bell.ca) | |
| 04:40.50 | *** join/#brlcad Maloeran (n=maloeran@c510091F5.inet.catch.no) | |
| 08:10.25 | *** join/#brlcad clock_ (n=clock@zux221-122-143.adsl.green.ch) | |
| 08:40.19 | clock_ | I am trying to reverseengineer what the "rot" command does |
| 08:41.15 | clock_ | I already found out the three numbers refer to rotations around axes in a way that positive number rotates the object anticlockwise if you sit where the axes cross and look at the axis label letter. |
| 08:41.54 | clock_ | However I thought it's rotating around the axes themselves but then I tried it on an arb6 and it didn't rotate around the X axis, but around the side of the arb6. |
| 08:42.13 | clock_ | The arb6 was defined that the X axis was going through the middle, not throught the side. |
| 08:42.28 | clock_ | So it cannot rotate neither around the combination axis nor around the object axis |
| 08:42.35 | clock_ | What is it actually rotating around? |
| 08:43.40 | CIA-5 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * 10brlcad/sh/footer.sh: add support for emacs lisp files |
| 08:45.07 | CIA-5 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * 10brlcad/sh/header.sh: add support for emacs lisp files |
| 08:50.09 | CIA-5 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * 10brlcad/sh/indent.sh: |
| 08:50.10 | CIA-5 | BRL-CAD: change the indent script so that it requires a path/to/directory argument for |
| 08:50.10 | CIA-5 | BRL-CAD: some hierarchy for the script to update. additionally, add support for a |
| 08:50.10 | CIA-5 | BRL-CAD: plethora of other file types including c++, objc, shell script, and emacs lisp |
| 08:50.10 | CIA-5 | BRL-CAD: files. |
| 08:51.58 | CIA-5 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * 10brlcad/src/libpkg/ (tcl.c tpkg.c): M-x indent-region |
| 08:53.23 | tofu | clock_: by deafult, through the local coordinate axis defined for that primitive, which for the arbs is one of the corners (turn on the model axis on the menu and it might become more clear) |
| 08:54.09 | tofu | even if you model with the global axis going through the middle, the local coordinate system for that primitive is unchanged (it can't change by definition) |
| 08:54.36 | tofu | you can also specify which coordinate system you mean via the settings menu (Rotate about option) |
| 08:55.57 | clock_ | What should I specify to rotate about the lines in the "Coordinates - model" cross? |
| 08:56.21 | clock_ | How can I make the model coordinates cross stay permanently even if I quit the program and restart again? |
| 08:57.58 | clock_ | I would like to change the help entry for "rot" to reflect all this information. If I do it will you accept the patch? I found out the help entry is identically in 2 files - src/tcscripts/helplib.tcl and src/tclscripts/lib/View.tcl. Is one of them automatically generated from the other or do I have to change it in both? |
| 08:57.58 | tofu | they are permanent except for one (the view) -- there are just at least three different cooridinates that you might be rotating about (and there are different command-line commands for those too) |
| 08:58.11 | clock_ | They are not permanent - when I turn the coordinates on and then quit the program and restart, they are gone and I have to turn them on again. |
| 08:58.22 | tofu | oh, you mean their display |
| 08:58.34 | clock_ | Yes the cross with 3 crossing lines and letters X Y Z |
| 08:58.35 | tofu | because they're still *there* .. just not shown |
| 08:58.46 | clock_ | I want them to be shown permanently |
| 08:58.58 | clock_ | Is there something like "Save settings"? |
| 08:59.26 | tofu | yeah, you can enable that.. turn them on and then (assuming you haven't already customized your .mgedrc) you can select "Update/create .mgedrc" on the file menu and it should save that setting |
| 08:59.27 | clock_ | Because I need them to keep sense from the model and I often quit the program and edit again |
| 08:59.36 | clock_ | aha cool :) |
| 08:59.52 | clock_ | And then they will be visible for every .g file I edit? |
| 08:59.57 | tofu | should be |
| 09:00.01 | clock_ | cool |
| 09:00.21 | tofu | if not for whatever reason, it should just be a line to add to your .mgedrc |
| 09:01.03 | tofu | you may want to back up your .mgedrc if you have edited it manually before hitting the update |
| 09:01.22 | tofu | as it can blow away changes if they're in the wrong part of the file |
| 09:02.44 | clock_ | But I realized these axes can be turned separately for each of the four panes in the multipane |
| 09:02.53 | clock_ | But in the .mgedrc I found only one place |
| 09:02.59 | clock_ | How does that correspond together? |
| 09:03.14 | tofu | ah, you use multipane |
| 09:03.36 | tofu | there are different variables for the other panes.. which I can't remember off the top of my head |
| 09:03.42 | clock_ | And I want these axes to be in all 4 they are useful |
| 09:03.54 | clock_ | So I set them in all panes and then save |
| 09:03.55 | tofu | but you will probably have to add the other three by hand, or let it auto-enable all four |
| 09:04.32 | clock_ | I also asked a question about helplib.tcl etc. |
| 09:04.37 | tofu | i don't think bob ever added multipane storage |
| 09:04.37 | clock_ | Do you know the answer? |
| 09:04.55 | clock_ | What is auto-enable? |
| 09:04.58 | tofu | yeah, the patch would be accepted, of course -- assuming it actually makes sense :) |
| 09:05.03 | tofu | as for the two files |
| 09:05.17 | clock_ | What happens if I patch the two files differently? |
| 09:05.28 | tofu | they are identical, and have to both be updated separately unfortunately (one is used by mged, the other by archer) |
| 09:05.37 | clock_ | What is archer? |
| 09:06.01 | tofu | something you haven't seen yet and probably need not worry about yet either :) |
| 09:06.13 | clock_ | some old predecessor of mged? |
| 09:06.22 | tofu | but it's basically a rewrite of mged in progress with an improved user interface |
| 09:06.30 | tofu | postdecessor |
| 09:07.16 | tofu | it was only integrated a few iterations ago, and not even fully intergrated into the build yet (so there's only a Windows binary at the moment, and a few linux ones somewhere) |
| 09:07.31 | clock_ | Is it better than mged? |
| 09:07.50 | tofu | depends what your considerations are |
| 09:08.17 | tofu | it's not done in the least, so as a production tool to replace mged -- no, it's not "better" |
| 09:08.22 | clock_ | I think I need to learn more about the LGPL |
| 09:08.28 | tofu | but it is in a "better" direction, and better designed |
| 09:08.33 | clock_ | To really be sure I don't want to release my code under LGPL |
| 09:08.43 | clock_ | Maybe I will realize it's not so bad :) |
| 09:11.05 | tofu | if you're familiar with creative commons, LGPL is sort of like the attribution, share-alike CC license version |
| 09:11.21 | clock_ | So it's like BSD? |
| 09:11.49 | tofu | somewhere between bsd and gpl |
| 09:11.49 | clock_ | The obvious advantage of LGPL and BSD is that you don't run into the following problem |
| 09:12.05 | clock_ | I wanted to make a video and use a soundtrack, but the video used GFDL image and the soundtrack was CC-BY-SA |
| 09:12.19 | clock_ | The licences mean the same but are mutually incompatible so it would be illegal to do it |
| 09:12.28 | clock_ | I had to write to the author and wait for the answer |
| 09:12.40 | tofu | the difference basically being that if you make a mod to the lgpl code that you used, and publish software that uses that lgpl code, then you have to make those modifications available (bsd does not require this) |
| 09:13.23 | clock_ | So that if I link with a LGPL library and sell a proprietary program, I don't have to disclose. But if I mod that library I have to disclose, right? |
| 09:13.41 | tofu | only any mods to the library |
| 09:13.48 | tofu | your code is your code, their code is theirs |
| 09:14.18 | tofu | it's not "infectious", but does require disclosure of changes made |
| 09:14.44 | clock_ | And what do you need? |
| 09:14.53 | tofu | what do you mean? |
| 09:14.58 | clock_ | Can I keep the *.c file on the web GPL and just tell you you can use it under LGPL? |
| 09:15.06 | clock_ | Or do you need me to publish that file under LGPL? |
| 09:16.47 | tofu | hmm, it would have to be lgpl'd proper. I cannot update/modify exiting clauses that aren't under my domain |
| 09:17.09 | clock_ | So if I release that under LGPL it's OK? |
| 09:17.56 | tofu | technically, not necessarily |
| 09:18.11 | tofu | there's still the issue of copyright, which is separate from the license |
| 09:18.45 | tofu | and as you mentioned, that can't be changed without you "giving away all rights", which you don't like (and I agree/understand why you wouldn't) |
| 09:19.09 | clock_ | I can't give away these rights |
| 09:20.20 | clock_ | I don't understand why you cannot take LGPL |
| 09:20.44 | clock_ | If you are a LGPL project you can completely legally collect any LGPL pieces of code around the Web and just insert them into your work |
| 09:20.48 | tofu | did you read the copyright assignment link I posted? that went into considerable detail |
| 09:21.01 | clock_ | No |
| 09:22.02 | tofu | there are two main camps on this issue -- those that require assignment (which we are in) and those that do not |
| 09:22.28 | tofu | you might be surprised to find out, but there are vast numbers in both camps, and benefits and negatives to both positions |
| 09:22.33 | clock_ | And FSF also requires assignment, right? |
| 09:22.46 | tofu | for many of their projects, yes |
| 09:23.00 | tofu | can't speak for all of them, though -- they have hundreds |
| 09:23.09 | clock_ | What you can legally do is |
| 09:23.22 | tofu | but like, the gnu build tools -- autoconf, automake, etc .. those all require assignment for example |
| 09:23.23 | clock_ | a) Write an empty file (c) Sean Morrison |
| 09:23.30 | clock_ | b) release that under LGPL |
| 09:24.06 | clock_ | c) put my changes in. Now it's your work but derived from mine. The derivation was legal because it was according to my licence terms |
| 09:24.15 | clock_ | d) assign the copyright of your work to BRL-CAD |
| 09:24.53 | tofu | heh |
| 09:25.11 | tofu | if people could do that, gpl would have no weight behind it |
| 09:25.34 | clock_ | If an empty file doesn't stand up to 'statistical uniqueness' you just do it with an existing piece of library code because you said you are going to integrate it into a library anyway |
| 09:25.47 | clock_ | They can |
| 09:25.57 | tofu | you chose gpl, and it's rather explicit -- even my derivative would be required to be GPL |
| 09:26.05 | clock_ | The fact that a work is a derived one doesn't in any way diminish the fact it's your work |
| 09:26.34 | clock_ | Actually you cannot |
| 09:26.48 | clock_ | because my (c) notice has to be kept there according to LGPL |
| 09:27.39 | tofu | well, you said make a derivative, so i'm giving you the benefit of the doubt -- say I did make a true derivative and didn't just copy/paste |
| 09:27.57 | tofu | i'm still obligated to gpl the derivative, that's a requirement in gpl |
| 09:28.08 | clock_ | Or you can look how my program works, get the idea and just write it again |
| 09:28.27 | clock_ | That's a perfecrly legal way how to get the same functionality with ARL copyright |
| 09:28.59 | clock_ | change couple of variable names and function names, shuffle some comments and I won't sue you over infringement :) |
| 09:29.00 | tofu | that's a derivative .. I'd have to do the whole "clean room" thing where someone relays ideas from another room approach, and it's frankly not worth it for all but the most difficult drivers :) |
| 09:30.00 | clock_ | Why? What happens if you just rename couple of things in my code and say you wrote it once more? |
| 09:31.35 | clock_ | this is like coming to a homeless who needs food and saying "take some of my food" and he says "no that's illegal you have to stick it into my mouth" and I say "no your mouth smells I am not going to approach my fingers to your mouth" |
| 09:32.06 | clock_ | So I start finding a possible loophole in the law how he can legally steal it from my shopping bag when I want to give it to him :) |
| 09:32.49 | tofu | if you *really* want to have it included, you're going to have to change it on your end, not on mine -- maybe e-mail that legal team that helps with issues, they might have an idea given your country's assignment issues -- it could very well be the case that you are allowed to assign copyright under U.S. law, just not under your own |
| 09:33.54 | clock_ | "nforcement of copyright is generally not possible for distributors" - isn't a copyright violation a criminal offence? |
| 09:34.00 | tofu | actually, it's more like telling the homeless guy that there's free food and a warm bed in upstate new york.. but he lives downtown .. doesn't really help |
| 09:34.17 | clock_ | It's like saying "if you murder someone, only the murdered can sue you - the state attorney is completely helpless against the criminal" |
| 09:34.41 | clock_ | In CZ it's a criminal offence. |
| 09:35.09 | tofu | in most countries it is |
| 09:35.16 | tofu | but copyright is also per country |
| 09:35.40 | tofu | some countries require you to register to obtain copyright, some require fees, some don't etc |
| 09:36.07 | clock_ | But if I assign my copyright to you then you start owning the code and you can sue me over it's distribution |
| 09:36.15 | tofu | US government, for example, cannot *claim* copyright on original works in the US, but they can in every other country on the planet |
| 09:37.45 | clock_ | It's like giving a homeless a shelter and he sais "sorry I have concerns that someone could say I am burlarizing your house - I need you to assign the ownership of your house to me - but I promise I will allow you to still live there." |
| 09:38.57 | clock_ | If the courts worked according to the law, it would be a different issue. But sometimes it works that they compare who has more money, or a DoS attack is mounted against a weak victim using the lawyer fees. |
| 09:38.59 | tofu | not a bad analogy actually |
| 09:39.34 | clock_ | ARL comes to the judge, lobbies and bye bye |
| 09:39.46 | tofu | so leave it as is, you don't want to go that route, and frankly neither do I |
| 09:39.49 | clock_ | And I should assign copyright to face that risk? |
| 09:40.15 | tofu | heh, "ARL comes to the judge" |
| 09:40.37 | tofu | you can't just sue the gov't, at least the u.s. govt -- they have to let you sue them |
| 09:40.56 | clock_ | I can't sue them, but they can sue me - great :) |
| 09:41.23 | tofu | seriously though |
| 09:41.31 | clock_ | And when I say fuck off they kindnap me and bring to the guantanamo - I can't hold myself from assigning copyright to the US govmt |
| 09:41.34 | tofu | more trouble than it's worth |
| 09:41.40 | tofu | you don't even have a manpage written ;) |
| 09:42.14 | clock_ | I was expecting some problems so I delayed writing a manpage after I see my code will be really useful |
| 09:42.55 | tofu | we're not even to the point of determining whether it's technically beneficial to add the tool as is -- it'd need work to polish it up for production use |
| 09:43.23 | tofu | stuck talking about copyrights |
| 09:43.28 | clock_ | yes but now I see there is a bureaucratical problem that prevents me from contributing any code |
| 09:43.44 | clock_ | Except patches, obviously |
| 09:44.20 | clock_ | Better than writing a lot of code and taking care about proper manpage, commandline flags and then realizing I don't want to assign copyright to the US government |
| 09:44.55 | clock_ | Like there have been cases when a cryptography expert was put into jail just because he had a lecture - completely ridiculous things are going on in the US |
| 09:45.05 | clock_ | I don't want to entangle into this stuff unless absolutely necessayr |
| 09:46.22 | clock_ | Or a programmer who came to US by plane was put into jail because he was Arabian |
| 09:47.01 | tofu | unless you either 1) enter an agreement that requires assignment upon creation (that seems to be what gentoo is doing, so you technically never hold copyright, hence never transfer), or 2) release it public domain or 3) stick to patches perhaps |
| 09:47.04 | clock_ | They just determined he was a terrorist - and then it came out he isn't. The only way to be completely safe seems to not having anythhing common with the States. |
| 09:47.25 | clock_ | Why should I give away even a tiny bit from my safety when I get nothing? I am just giving in this case |
| 09:48.03 | tofu | why are you asking me? |
| 09:48.10 | tofu | i'm not asking you |
| 09:48.22 | clock_ | I understand BRL-CAD is giving me a huge benefit, but I am going to get that benefit even if I don't assign the copyright :) |
| 09:49.27 | tofu | yes, yet the same mentality you're taking is the same fearmongering that I had to fight for almost 5 years just to get it released as open source |
| 09:49.48 | clock_ | I am not fearmongering. The US are fearmongering/ |
| 09:50.26 | tofu | seriously, clock, I'm not going to get into politics -- it's a pointless discussion |
| 09:50.53 | clock_ | Sorry I just wanted to explain that I am not acting irrationally |
| 09:51.12 | clock_ | Deciding to assign to say FSF would be probably easier for me |
| 09:51.15 | tofu | i don't think politics should come into play with the licensing, nor should it be a factor in the consideration of most computing issues, especially software |
| 09:51.35 | clock_ | I didn't want you to have a feeling that I am doing it because I am mean or I want to impose arbitrary restrictions on you |
| 09:51.43 | tofu | there's plenty to be done that menefits the software by itself, for the sake of the software and the industry without getting into the politics |
| 09:51.48 | clock_ | Like write a little piece of code and then having fun dictating you the licence |
| 09:52.16 | clock_ | I can update the help files |
| 09:52.25 | clock_ | DO you mind if the help entry will be say 10 lines of text? |
| 09:52.33 | clock_ | Is there some requirement it has to be short? |
| 09:52.45 | tofu | I don't care if you're acting rationally or not -- you are making a decision motivated by your own personal politics and that's your decision, your right, your perrogative -- so be it, just don't try to get me to agree with that decision (that's my right) |
| 09:53.21 | tofu | the help entry should be "succint" |
| 09:53.49 | clock_ | But is there a place where more detailed description can be entered? |
| 09:54.05 | clock_ | This entry was so succinct I was unable to imagine almost anything how it works |
| 09:54.07 | tofu | in the mged documentation |
| 09:54.20 | clock_ | But that's impractical to work |
| 09:54.23 | clock_ | work with |
| 09:54.27 | tofu | the command html reference |
| 09:54.34 | tofu | i dont' mean the book |
| 09:54.37 | tofu | i mean on the help menu |
| 09:54.49 | clock_ | Where is the help menu? |
| 09:54.54 | tofu | it's.. |
| 09:54.56 | tofu | on the help menu |
| 09:55.03 | clock_ | Do you mean that if I type "help" it prints all the entries so they have to be short? |
| 09:55.09 | tofu | no |
| 09:55.16 | clock_ | I have File Edit Create etc. but no Help |
| 09:55.25 | tofu | keep looking :) |
| 09:56.08 | tofu | http://ftp.brlcad.org/images/mged.jpg |
| 09:56.12 | tofu | see the .. "Help" menu? |
| 09:59.47 | tofu | aiight, time to z, cya later |
| 10:20.23 | clock_ | Oh, the Help is to the right! |
| 10:21.07 | clock_ | Wow! Help on context! |
| 10:28.52 | clock_ | Does the VRML and X3D export work? |
| 11:29.29 | clock_ | I saw the picture of Mike Muus in the help |
| 11:29.39 | clock_ | Did he have a wife and children? |
| 13:12.16 | CIA-5 | BRL-CAD: 03jlowenz * 10brlcad/src/other/openNURBS/ (6 files): Remove the "extra qualifications" in these files to quell the errors now spewed by g++ since 4.1+ |
| 13:17.07 | clock_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 13:17.07 | clock_ | nmg_break_all_es_on_v() code=2, why wasn't this vertex fused? |
| 13:17.07 | clock_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 13:17.25 | clock_ | [...] |
| 13:17.27 | clock_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 13:17.27 | clock_ | find_best_vu: There is a loop to cut, lu=x7d01a400 |
| 13:17.27 | clock_ | find_best_vu: There is a loop to cut |
| 13:17.27 | clock_ | bu_bomb(): taking longjmp up to application handler |
| 13:17.27 | clock_ | conversion of /tetrax/yellow.r FAILED!!! |
| 13:17.48 | clock_ | I tried to run g-vrml. Do these messages mean that the resulting VRML is broken? |
| 13:17.54 | clock_ | Or that parts are mimsisng? |
| 14:44.11 | ``Erik | missing parts, as described by the {()} syntax |
| 14:45.25 | clock_ | Why is this happening? |
| 14:45.40 | clock_ | The model displays OK, animates OK, there are no overlaps printed |
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