IRC log for #brlcad on 20070622

00:01.49 brlcad if you post just one patch to the patches tracker, I'd just as well give you commit access so long as you've read the hacking file
00:02.21 yukonbob where's that document?
00:02.24 brlcad all commits are reviewed by myself and others, so the more the merrier ;)
00:02.31 brlcad new devs welcome
00:02.35 brlcad it's in the top-level
00:02.37 brlcad HACKING
00:02.49 brlcad that's the basic dev guide
00:03.53 brlcad nothing is set in stone, but it at least lays down some consistency structure
00:04.49 brlcad intentionally do avoid some of the more mundane "bikeshed" issues
00:06.02 IriX64 and i suppose if i bitch long enough you'll ask me why I don't fix it myself ;)
00:06.21 brlcad IriX64: in your case, no I wouldn't :)
00:06.42 IriX64 good just so you know I'm *not capable :)
00:07.34 brlcad now is an opportune time for devs though as the activity is such that even my ability to review all commits isn't swamped yet (such that new devs couldn't be added without peer-review delegation)
00:08.04 IriX64 no...thanks :)
00:09.32 IriX64 http://rafb.net/p/IwLSo887.html heh look at the cflags
00:10.24 brlcad IriX64: not bad, that will get you better performance
00:10.50 brlcad it's something that would be nice to do automatically some day when --enable-optimized is turned on too
00:10.57 brlcad at least some variation
00:11.09 IriX64 should i'm hoping it works actually
00:11.17 brlcad IriX64: there are other gcc flags that will give you even more performance that you might want to test out as well
00:11.51 IriX64 thankyou ill look :)
00:11.52 brlcad given how much you like to compile and run the benchmarks, that certainly be useful to figure out -- what's the absolute best performance you can get simply out of tweaking compilation CFLAGS
00:12.23 IriX64 have to disable debug and symbols tho if you really want it to scream
00:12.47 IriX64 i like debug on :)
00:13.10 brlcad another set of flags are the ones for alignment, i.e. -falign-functions, -falign-jumps, -falign-labels, -falign-loops, etc .. those can boost performance particularly well and in concert with other flags
00:13.28 IriX64 btw i was wrong flushall() isn't needed fcloseall() does that too
00:13.42 brlcad that was actually an amusing discovery -- disabling debug without turning on alignment can actually slow it down
00:14.03 IriX64 heh ill play
00:14.03 IriX64 don't mind waiting 50 minutes per
00:14.16 brlcad IriX64: abort() closes any descriptors that weren't closed too
00:14.37 IriX64 never used abort so i don't know
00:18.14 yukonbob brlcad: rock'n'roll... I'll let you get back to your work, and we can catch-up later for commit access (is cvs, svn, other?)
00:20.53 brlcad cvs at the moment, svn before the end of the year
00:21.18 CIA-4 BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * 10brlcad/src/util/pl-X.c: use 'fixed' font by default instead of the obscure 'vtsingle' font.. should really have a cmd-line option to set/override
00:21.46 brlcad hm, now how to work pl-X .. haven't used it in years
00:22.02 yukonbob pl-X < my_plotfile.plot
00:22.29 brlcad hrmph.. flashes my plot file then exits
00:23.34 brlcad ah, well now that's stupid...
00:24.03 brlcad it just sleeps for a second then exits
00:24.12 yukonbob heh -- cheap
00:24.13 brlcad and assumes single-buffered
00:33.05 yukonbob heh -- no kidding? ;) What are you running IriX64?
00:33.16 IriX64 winaxe at the moment
00:33.58 IriX64 shows the geometry in color but bring up a frame buffer and the graphic screen and command screen go black
00:34.43 IriX64 touch one of those other screens and they revert to normal tho
00:36.28 IriX64 nice online help tho
00:37.39 IriX64 twingy was right i know nothing about lighting, all my havoc photonmaps come out sorta dark
00:40.52 IriX64 doh...it's taking so long cause you started a compile and forgot about it goof :)
00:41.54 IriX64 http://www.winaxe.com/x-windows-for-windows.html
00:42.00 IriX64 there yukonbob
00:48.30 IriX64 still have fits trying to cut from the xside and pasting to the windows side
00:51.10 yukonbob winaxe looks like an x server, not a window manager...
00:51.10 yukonbob how long does evaluation last?
00:51.29 IriX64 thats what it is and a whole lot more
00:51.41 IriX64 hasn't expired yet and ive had it a month
00:53.21 IriX64 whup oh well :)
01:00.49 IriX64 demo time is up oh well
01:02.30 *** join/#brlcad yukonbob (n=bch@whthyt224-180.northwestel.net)
01:04.17 IriX64 yukonbob it's demo ware shuts down on you after i think 60 minutes
01:05.12 yukonbob IriX64: so did you buy your copy?
01:05.16 yukonbob brlcad: the built-in regex in brlcad... is it just henry spencers lib, or ??
01:09.38 brlcad yes it is
01:11.11 brlcad everything in src/other is really just provided for compilation convenience so users don't have to go download anything -- using pre-installed or build-system installed libraries are generally preferred of course
01:11.53 brlcad libregex is an interesting case, though -- have found several regex implementations that perform _considerably_ slower than spencer's earlier 90
01:12.11 yukonbob right -- I'm just going through all this on my NetBSD system to try to build dependencies w/i the pkgsrc system, and keep everything "admin-able" w/i the pgksrc framework...
01:12.20 brlcad 90's implementation .. or buggy even, where spencers has no problem (with massive expressions for example)
01:13.22 brlcad yukonbob: ideally, you should/could get it to work with --disable-almost-everything (and maybe then add --enable-tcl-build --enable-tk-build since they're pre-release)
01:13.46 yukonbob brlcad: I'm still playing w/ 7.8, since it's not dealing w/ 8.5...
01:15.25 yukonbob I use tcl/tk on my system anyway... if I wasn't worried about collisions, I'd just install the 8.5...
01:15.26 brlcad i really wish we didn't have to upgrade to 8.5, it's the first time in recent memory (ever?) that we've gone to a pre-release version, usually hanging behind a few versions
01:15.45 brlcad but getting AquaTk working is a bit of a high-priority item
01:16.10 yukonbob I guess I could install a chroot environ for brlcad and go w/ 8.5...
01:16.27 brlcad the problem you'll run into in 7.8 is that we actually required a custom tk
01:16.40 brlcad brl-cad included several tk mods that were being integrated upstream into tk
01:16.49 brlcad new canvas widget in particular
01:17.48 brlcad the process with the tcl/tk folks, however, just become too much of a burden so much of that code has been rewritten, decoupled, and/or removed, so that we can build with a clean tcl/tk again -- none of those changes are in 7.8 though iirc
01:18.13 brlcad that's functionality limited to just one feature of mged, but it means you'll probably have to have a patch to successfully compile against a system tcl/tk
01:19.44 yukonbob ahh --- that makes sense --- I witnessed what you were talking about, but didn't finish looking into it...
01:19.58 yukonbob 7.10 removes that restriction?
01:20.15 brlcad our tk enhancements are the predominant reason why we're still not integrated into the various package management systems like ports, apt, fink, etc, and part of the motivation for much of the changes in 7.10
01:20.43 brlcad yeah, latest head removes that restriction and builds cleanly now
01:22.01 yukonbob alright -- well, I've got 7.8.4 building on my machine, but using it's (necessarily) custom tcl/tk... but I'm going to move to playing w/ 7.10 then... tcl/tk 8.5 is going to have to make it to the system sometime anyway...
01:23.22 yukonbob what's the feature of mged that required the core-patch to tk?
01:24.06 brlcad the Sketch Editor
01:24.22 brlcad it draws on a custom Bezier Canvas widget
01:24.36 yukonbob right -- /me explored that briefly...
01:25.05 brlcad that's the item in the TODO remaining for 7.10.2 release that I've left to deal with
01:25.22 yukonbob there's currently no sketch editor?
01:25.24 brlcad as it's presently just turned off -- need to make it use a different canvas widget
01:25.48 yukonbob OK -- so sketching fucntionality is temporarily missing in 7.10.x, correct?
01:25.48 brlcad currently on head -- should be restored prior to release, but I have to code that up
01:26.21 brlcad in 7.10.1 yes
01:34.02 brlcad ``Erik: just fyi, a particular server is under massive woes at the moment .. went nutty and eventually locked up
01:34.53 brlcad it was having a helluva time scrubbing .. massive delays and crashed or was rebooted this morning, and spent most of the day fscking only to later lock up hard
01:36.49 ``Erik um
01:36.55 ``Erik bring it up single user mode
01:36.55 Twingy you guys haven't thrown that in the garbage can yet?
01:36.59 ``Erik disable background fsck
01:37.08 Twingy it's ancient
01:37.09 brlcad massive woes with services after the earlier reboot too, many libraries were apparently updated without the tools being rebuilt so they all fail with missing library errors (this was before the crash)
01:37.10 ``Erik that's what kills it
01:37.25 ``Erik huh
01:37.29 ``Erik :/
01:37.34 ``Erik didja world it?
01:37.38 ``Erik um
01:37.40 brlcad i was in the midst of rebuilding smbd when it locked up
01:37.54 ``Erik I think the only big consumers left are us and bills guys
01:38.14 brlcad yeah, bills guys were up in arms as he's got pjt breathing down at him for some data
01:38.28 brlcad I'll be in early early tomorrow to hopefully upline it
01:38.46 ``Erik um, you can mount it ro
01:38.49 ``Erik to get the data to 'em
01:39.27 brlcad well at the moment, it aint doing anything since it locked up -- didn't have time to deal with the crash today
01:40.02 ``Erik um, when ti's booting, and hits the |/-\ scroller, hit backspace or something, do "boot -s" to get single user mode
01:40.12 ``Erik then you can mount stuff up, etc, get the production need off
01:40.24 brlcad I can manage, but thought you might like to know in case you try to get in .. 2 is still scrubbing btw (with curiously/exceptionally low cpu/io usage)
01:40.48 brlcad where's background fsck stashed?
01:58.49 *** join/#brlcad IriX64 (n=mario_du@bas2-sudbury98-1096601029.dsl.bell.ca)
02:02.30 IriX64 rotten cat keeps pressing my reboot button while crying for milk :)
02:03.15 IriX64 yukonbob if you're interested in windows xservers xwin32 is pretty decent too
02:03.26 IriX64 commercial also
02:03.57 IriX64 also mi_x 4.2
02:04.11 IriX64 and my fav cygwin-x
02:12.26 ``Erik /etc/rc.conf has the inf0z, um, it's a feature to regular fsck
02:12.33 ``Erik -F vs -B or something
02:13.00 ``Erik background fsck requires soft updates turned on, so if you have it unmounted, you COULD use tunefs to disable softupdates
02:13.07 ``Erik I believe you can turn them back on with the fs live
02:13.40 ``Erik (softupdates is essentially a smarter operation order, the theory being that by doing the ops in a concurrency friendly order, a journaled FS is unnecessary)
02:14.24 brlcad how long does the fsck usually take?
02:14.41 ``Erik straight fsck without softupdates (fg mode) is maybe 1-1.5 hours
02:15.18 brlcad i might just bring it up single user then, do the fsck, then get them their data
02:15.37 brlcad then fool around with any fixings
02:15.42 ``Erik that'd be the best way, I think
02:15.59 ``Erik I'll try to keep half an eye on irc, or you have my cellphone #
02:16.15 brlcad you're on vacation, I ain't calling
02:16.22 brlcad that's just wrong
02:16.32 ``Erik aight *shrug*
02:16.36 brlcad :)
02:16.37 ``Erik if you get terribly stuck, though *shrug*
02:16.47 ``Erik I seriously doubt you will
02:16.52 ``Erik but *shrug*
02:17.15 brlcad maybe someone would call the MPs and say there's something explosive inside the case
02:17.40 ``Erik my big plans for tomorrow are to make pretzels from scratch *shrug*
02:17.50 ``Erik heh, different kind of "blow up"
02:18.14 brlcad the server's .. uh .. down. permanently.
02:18.34 ``Erik up... way up.. in many pieces...
02:20.39 IriX64 http://rafb.net/p/PujJym17.html dunno if i should paste stuff like this
02:21.31 IriX64 if xwin32 doesn't time out on me ill post the results on the blog
02:26.30 IriX64 http://irix32.spaces.live.com/photos brlcad albumn first pix
02:28.16 IriX64 should test some of the other lighting models i guess
02:28.19 poolio brlcad: Tomorrow I'm probably going to be researching/designing the GA framework. If I write / sketch stuff by hand, is it fine if I just keep that to myself and use it or would you rather be able to see my progress/ideas
02:46.15 brlcad IriX64: not unless you intend to fix them :)
02:46.44 brlcad sub millimeter overlaps are not cause for concern regardless, you can quell the reporting with a command line option
02:47.21 IriX64 the lighting models?
02:47.38 IriX64 fix them? snort!
02:47.41 brlcad poolio: your development workflow is your own .. just the code should be very well documented as to what is going on, even if you need to resort to ascii art :)
02:47.48 brlcad IriX64: no, the overlaps
02:49.47 poolio brlcad: so you won't be worried if you don't see code? (my main question was proving that I was working(
02:50.01 IriX64 the overlap tool is capable of that but i don't know what i'm doing with it
02:50.45 IriX64 err gui overlap tool
02:51.05 IriX64 ill show you it wait a few minutes
02:54.10 brlcad poolio: ahh, no, that's fine
02:54.28 IriX64 the blog brlcad albumn tool1 & tool2
02:54.39 poolio brlcad: ok. I'll try to get the main framework outline done and include that as part of my project writeup and email that to you tomorrow
02:55.03 brlcad IriX64: I don't want/need to see the overlap tool .. I know more than well enough what all of mged looks like ...
02:55.25 IriX64 sorry thought you expressed an interest :)
02:55.26 brlcad poolio: sounds great
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03:06.08 IriX64 watch it poolio he'll send the policio after you if it's not proper :)
03:06.43 IriX64 maybe that should be mpios :)
03:07.29 IriX64 brlcad got time to tend to my build problem or should we shelve that for now?
03:12.40 IriX64 same blog same albumn compare to the native windows version.
03:12.45 IriX64 tool3
03:13.46 IriX64 that bob@mako is good :)
03:16.28 IriX64 prefer the cygwin port myself ;)
03:20.42 brlcad IriX64: i'm working on it
03:22.49 poolio brlcad: did you try running the beset fitness test prog? I just want to make sure I added it to cvs right
03:24.36 poolio brlcad: also when you were saying variable length genomes were difficult, had you ever looked at genetic programming? Apparently GAs and GPs aren't just synonyms, GPs are tailored to run on trees (of variable sizes)
03:38.48 IriX64 I'm reloading the IriX64 blog with past effortts,designs,disasters :)
03:39.40 IriX64 The IriX32 blog is only half of me :)
03:45.08 IriX64 http://irix64.spaces.live.com/photos
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05:25.07 CIA-4 BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * 10brlcad/src/util/pl-X.c:
05:25.07 CIA-4 BRL-CAD: big update/enhancements so that pl-X is actually functional and useful. if the
05:25.07 CIA-4 BRL-CAD: last command in a plot file is an erase command, don't do it (wth show a black
05:25.07 CIA-4 BRL-CAD: window). most importantly, keep the window up until the user presses a key.
05:25.07 CIA-4 BRL-CAD: additional goodness, if we're on Mac OS X, make sure X11 has focus. ignore
05:25.09 CIA-4 BRL-CAD: newlines in the file for kicks.
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09:04.43 fressbaer hello
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11:26.52 thing0 hey all
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11:41.28 thing0 hey elite01
11:41.29 thing0 sup?
11:41.36 elite01 home! :)
11:41.39 elite01 (just got home)
11:42.00 elite01 and now, fortune spit with a quote form "Edwim Schrodinger" at me
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11:47.28 thing1 damn dialup drop out
11:47.29 thing1 argh
11:47.29 thing1 hehe
11:50.27 thing1 damn
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18:17.17 poolio brlcad: You've got mail :)
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18:54.07 poolio brlcad: also when you get a chance, maybe you could explain how brlcad deals with the CSG trees :)
19:31.31 IriX64 make install
19:34.55 IriX64 http://rafb.net/p/VZiv2N84.html < --- fbserv on the windows side :)
19:41.20 IriX64 http://rafb.net/p/axrGmn24.html < --- heheh it works sorrry to be so verbose :)
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19:46.11 IriX64 now to copy my latest effort from cygwin to windows.... wish me luck :)
19:48.09 IriX64 this thing is huge, over a gig for the tree, course thats a static compile
19:48.47 IriX64 err link
19:50.34 IriX64 name something that by all rights should not work, i'm trying to be complete here
19:51.20 IriX64 man 2,708 files, 90 folders
19:51.57 IriX64 thats everything except adrt
19:55.30 IriX64 crap metaball creation still crashes it :(
20:04.57 IriX64 http://rafb.net/p/8AaDui37.html < --- just so you know i'm working with your code
20:24.31 IriX64 ah i see metaball not implemented in this version
20:24.58 IriX64 so why does it crash mged
20:41.27 IriX64 bu_log.....
20:42.05 IriX64 to each his own :)
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21:13.11 IriX64 48kc ... interesting :)
21:16.46 IriX64 starting another tree to go edit happy in, yours brlcad awaits you :)
21:18.00 brlcad poolio: got it, thanks!
21:18.07 brlcad IriX64: five lines...
21:18.29 IriX64 again i don't count well but ill try
21:19.20 IriX64 you've gotta admit what i lack in expertise i make up form in enthusiasm :)
21:21.09 poolio brlcad: cool cool. I've started kind of outlining in pseudocode what the framework is gonna be like
21:21.23 brlcad IriX64: which is the main reason you've not been ejected ;)
21:21.35 brlcad others wouldn't be so patient
21:21.39 brlcad so please try to count
21:21.42 IriX64 heh thanks for your tolerance :)
21:21.47 IriX64 ill try
21:23.26 poolio brlcad: the whole tree layout and whatnot in librt are quite confusing to me :$
21:24.27 brlcad poolio: I'll read it in more detail later this evening and add some of my own comments and edits for sharing around "in house" (mainly adding extra detail on the "big picture" of why try to do this at all)
21:25.23 brlcad poolio: the csg tree is a directed acyclic graph that can be turned into a binary directed tree or left in graph form
21:25.51 brlcad you generally don't have to care other than knowing how to create a hierarchy (which you don't need just yet ;)
21:26.56 brlcad first input test case should be just a simple sphere
21:37.09 poolio brlcad: Yes, but I'd like to have it correclty interact with the csg tree, even if it's just one shape
21:38.15 poolio brlcad: I'd also appreciate more comments on the big picture, I don't think I entirely understand it :)
21:39.29 poolio bascially I want to learn how to work with the csg tree now, that way everything will work the same when I go to more shapes or operations the current structure won't work and will need to be heavily updated. I'd pretty much have to rewrite all of the genome encoding and reading stuff
21:44.49 brlcad poolio: from a construction perspective, maybe look at src/proc-db and man libwdb
21:45.12 brlcad and perhaps src/mk
21:45.30 brlcad they includes lots of examples on creating geometry in memory, creating .g geometry files
21:46.12 poolio alright cool
21:46.34 poolio also, is a good way of approaching the storage of objects putting htem in a .g file and manipulating/reading/writing from there? that's the way I currently hvae it set up
21:46.40 brlcad there's a way to create/open in-memory-only geometry files as well, but I'd recommend actually sticking to creating actual files so results can be reviewed, manually loaded, etc
21:47.07 poolio brlcad: Well I think it's probalby better to keep it optionally stored to a file, that way if you want to speed it up when you run in parallel it will be a lot better
21:47.14 poolio otherwise you're transmitting quite a lot of data back and forth
21:47.58 brlcad fwiw, that's getting into the realm of optimization where you've not yet profiled ..
21:48.11 poolio true :P
21:48.34 poolio It's just a thought. Also for me testing I need to try to keep it reasonably fast otherwise I might go days computing
21:48.52 brlcad it's a good concern, but I can categorically say that you're very likely not going to be I/O bound writing geometry to disk -- ray-tracing will dominate
21:48.55 poolio and I don't know how large the .g file will grow to, but I guess I can always just scale it down
21:49.35 brlcad the .g files shouldn't be more than a few K, they're rather compact for CSG
21:50.04 brlcad a full tank in csg can be often only a few MB
21:50.24 poolio brlcad: ok :)
21:50.24 brlcad whereas in polygonal form, they might be a GB
21:50.47 brlcad there's about two orders of magnitude difference
21:51.11 poolio that's quite crazy. Some insane compression if it works well :)
21:54.42 poolio brlcad: also the reason I want to work with trees is because of the crossover, mutation, and reproduction aspects. I'd rather code them to work with trees than with whatever shape I'm working with
21:54.50 poolio although I guess the only thing that will exist is mutation
21:54.51 brlcad .g overhead is 104 bytes to stub out an empty file, each primitive is roughly about 100-500 bytes
21:54.54 poolio (in a one-shape system)
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22:24.02 IriX64 anybody know the latest version of solaris? issolaris5 is good but..
22:24.11 IriX64 ie too
22:43.06 IriX64 haha solaris10 :)
22:43.51 IriX64 testing your solaris code i.e -DSOLARIS :)
22:51.21 IriX64 http://rafb.net/p/z44nf372.html lets see if it even starts to build
22:54.12 IriX64 http://rafb.net/p/oJxZEi22.html heh i'll shutup now :)

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