| 00:09.54 | *** join/#brlcad yukonbob (n=yukonbob@whthyt224-180.northwestel.net) | |
| 00:50.51 | brlcad | MinuteElectron: sounds good, I can take a look at it as well (though I'll be working on ldap first) |
| 04:26.00 | poolio | brlcad: hmmm I want to port my code to scheme 8) |
| 04:26.21 | brlcad | heh |
| 04:26.28 | brlcad | you been talking to ``Erik or something |
| 04:27.07 | poolio | naw. I've just been meaning to learn scheme and ran through the first bit of SICP and it looks enticing |
| 04:27.41 | poolio | ent.hispeed.ch� |
| 04:27.42 | poolio | |20:11| � yukonbob ��> �n=yukonbob@whthyt224-180.northwestel.net� |
| 04:27.42 | poolio | |20:52| <@ brlcad> MinuteElectron: sounds good, I can take a look at it as well (though I'll be working on ldap first) |
| 04:27.45 | poolio | Day changed to 28 Jul 2007 |
| 04:27.48 | poolio | christ |
| 04:27.57 | poolio | i need to fix my synaptics driver |
| 04:29.58 | poolio | okee, fixed :D |
| 04:49.45 | yukonbob | poolio: what code do you want to port to scheme? |
| 04:56.52 | brlcad | his genetic algorithm code |
| 04:56.56 | brlcad | beset |
| 05:03.50 | yukonbob | hey brlcad ;) |
| 05:04.26 | brlcad | howdy bob |
| 05:04.28 | yukonbob | interesting timing, cause I've been thinking of getting into scheme for some time too, and finally made a project for myself to play with it... |
| 05:05.10 | yukonbob | interfacing guile w/ silc lib... and that made me think of guile bindings for brlcad ;) |
| 05:05.26 | brlcad | swig bindings would be better |
| 05:05.32 | brlcad | then you'd get guile for free |
| 05:05.57 | yukonbob | there you go -- swig is on my list of things to learn more about... |
| 05:06.12 | yukonbob | how's it going sean? |
| 05:10.05 | brlcad | pretty good |
| 05:10.22 | brlcad | almost time to get ready for siggraph in a week |
| 05:10.27 | yukonbob | !nice |
| 05:10.34 | CIA-29 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * 10brlcad/HACKING: inform the T2 package maintainer of linux releases |
| 05:10.41 | yukonbob | how long is that event? |
| 05:10.47 | brlcad | trying to get a new release out as well as finish up another code event beforehand |
| 05:10.52 | brlcad | it's about a week |
| 05:11.34 | yukonbob | how integrated is the in-memory format <--> renderer |
| 05:11.51 | brlcad | what do you mean? |
| 05:11.55 | yukonbob | ie: how tough would it be to use povray (for example) to render brlcad scene. |
| 05:13.24 | brlcad | wouldn't be too hard, but easiest would be to write a g-pov geometry exporter |
| 05:13.31 | brlcad | povray's format is pretty straightforward |
| 05:13.39 | yukonbob | or the renderer that ships w/ blender, or any arbitrary renderer... |
| 05:13.45 | brlcad | it'd be one of the easiest exporters to write |
| 05:13.50 | yukonbob | cool. |
| 05:14.00 | brlcad | likewise for an importer |
| 05:14.21 | brlcad | povray actually has loads of good overlap with our format as they also support CSG |
| 05:14.30 | brlcad | and implicit primitives |
| 05:15.00 | brlcad | the only difference would be dealing with non-solid geometry (povray will render non-solid, brl-cad does not) |
| 05:15.33 | yukonbob | right, pov ray generates shells, basically, iirc. |
| 05:15.40 | brlcad | need explicit format geometry to do most of the cel rendering techniques |
| 05:15.51 | brlcad | otherwise, something like rtedge is in that direction |
| 05:16.43 | yukonbob | I was playing w/ rtedge other week, and it was generating lots of horizontal artifacts (ie: horizontal lines sweeping off the curves)... is that typical? |
| 05:16.58 | brlcad | those povray shells could probably come in as nmg geometry, or even plate mode bots (which allows for thin-surfaces) |
| 05:17.50 | brlcad | no, that's not -- that was a bug in a particular version, if it's what I'm thinking you saw |
| 05:17.54 | yukonbob | you've lost me there brlcad, but no matter... I've still got dem conversion and docbook before I get involved with anything like renderers... |
| 05:17.57 | brlcad | should be fixed |
| 05:18.41 | brlcad | ahh :) |
| 05:18.55 | brlcad | hopefully 8.5 final isn't too far away |
| 05:19.09 | yukonbob | gotta be Real Soon Now(tm) |
| 05:19.15 | brlcad | that was part of the premise of moving to it, though need for critcial features too |
| 05:19.41 | yukonbob | oh, it'll all work out for certain... it's just a goofy transition atm |
| 05:19.49 | brlcad | yeah |
| 05:19.59 | brlcad | first time we've ever had/needed to |
| 05:20.27 | brlcad | usually way more cautious/hesitant on the upgrades |
| 05:21.44 | brlcad | if you get to the point of needing commit access, just let me know |
| 05:22.31 | brlcad | the door is fairly open to new devs so long as I can continue to review all commits with enough diligence |
| 05:22.45 | yukonbob | will do -- soon, hopefully, I'll be able to dedicate some more contiguous chunks of time... |
| 05:23.24 | yukonbob | brlcad is still managed by cvs, no? |
| 05:24.24 | brlcad | that will be changed before the year's end, but yes |
| 05:25.14 | yukonbob | is there anonymous checkout avail? |
| 05:25.15 | brlcad | yeah, still on cvs for the time being |
| 05:25.18 | brlcad | ~cadcvs |
| 05:25.18 | ibot | To obtain BRL-CAD from anonymous CVS: cvs -d :pserver:anonymous@brlcad.cvs.sourceforge.net:/cvsroot/brlcad login && cvs -d :pserver:anonymous@brlcad.cvs.sourceforge.net:/cvsroot/brlcad checkout -P brlcad |
| 05:25.32 | yukonbob | nice |
| 05:28.42 | yukonbob | brlcad: you a schemer/lisper? |
| 05:28.59 | brlcad | I've written some lisp over the years |
| 05:32.49 | brlcad | these days, alas mostly limited to emacs snippets but it's good enough to satisfy the itch |
| 05:33.14 | brlcad | for a long while, I've wanted to have a BRL-CAD major mode for .g files that lets you browse the geometry contents (ala tar mode) |
| 05:45.30 | yukonbob | sigraph starts next week (monday)? |
| 05:45.56 | yukonbob | *siggraph |
| 05:46.06 | poolio | brlcad: when are you gone? |
| 05:50.34 | yukonbob | ahh --- 6-9Aug |
| 05:51.38 | brlcad | starts on sat/sun next week |
| 05:51.49 | poolio | eek |
| 05:51.50 | CIA-29 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * 10brlcad/src/other/ (tcl/unix/.cvsignore tk/unix/.cvsignore): ignore tcl/tk lib products |
| 05:52.15 | brlcad | poolio: yeah, eek :) |
| 05:52.45 | poolio | brlcad: I was hoping to be done work before the 10th :\ |
| 05:52.56 | yukonbob | brlcad: are you looking forward to anything in particular when you attend? |
| 05:53.06 | brlcad | yukonbob: yeah, the whole thing :) |
| 05:53.12 | yukonbob | lol |
| 05:53.13 | brlcad | siggraph is a great conference |
| 05:53.22 | brlcad | so much to see and do, it's really "big" |
| 05:53.33 | poolio | any booth babes like at E3? |
| 05:53.38 | poolio | *they used to have at E3 |
| 05:53.52 | brlcad | once the expo starts, yeah some :) |
| 05:54.16 | brlcad | though the expo is only during the latter half, and not nearly as crazy booth-babe-wise as E3 |
| 05:55.23 | brlcad | a great balance of deeply technical content with artistic taste and entertainment |
| 05:55.36 | poolio | cool. I'm jealous |
| 06:00.52 | yukonbob | bring us back T-shirts: "My friend went to siggraph 2007 and all I got was this lousey t-shirt" |
| 06:07.47 | brlcad | I get a shirt every year :) |
| 07:03.56 | brlcad | MinuteElectron: .htaccess are re-enabled |
| 07:15.37 | CIA-29 | BRL-CAD: 03poolio * 10brlcad/src/gtools/beset/ (beset.c fitness.c population.c fitness.h population.h): fitness function should be working, so selection must be broken |
| 07:17.36 | *** join/#brlcad louipc_ (n=louipc@bas8-toronto63-1088754591.dsl.bell.ca) | |
| 07:18.19 | poolio | brlcad: errrr |
| 07:18.26 | poolio | http://poolio.org/files/bad_convergence.png |
| 07:19.18 | poolio | but I must sleep, I probably won't be around til late tomorrow |
| 07:19.26 | poolio | good night/mornin' |
| 08:48.19 | *** join/#brlcad Laniakea (i=clock@217-162-231-247.dclient.hispeed.ch) | |
| 10:06.53 | *** join/#brlcad docelic (n=docelic@212.91.113.199) | |
| 11:27.43 | *** join/#brlcad andy__ (n=andy@82-43-116-127.cable.ubr01.mort.blueyonder.co.uk) | |
| 11:28.13 | andy__ | Hello |
| 11:45.14 | *** join/#brlcad b0ef (n=b0ef@062016141081.customer.alfanett.no) | |
| 12:53.51 | MinuteElectron | brlcad: Will sort everything out in 1 or 3 weeks time. |
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| 20:07.47 | Maloeran | This is a strange question, but... does someone know how video playback in mplayer can take only 0.1% of one processor core? Can it really be that Nvidia drivers provide hardware mpeg4/xvid decoding? I can't really see any other explanation |
| 20:11.23 | ``Erik | um, given that mpeg (and jpeg) are based on breaking small areas (like 8x8) into simple regions with parametric systems (like, 16 different variants, iirc) |
| 20:11.55 | ``Erik | I think it'd be totally possible to make a very simple ogl accelerlated mpeg/jpeg display using 16 textures and gauroud shading for the color aspect... |
| 20:12.19 | Maloeran | As far as I know, Xv provides hardware color space conversion and scaling, there's no decoding involved |
| 20:12.30 | ``Erik | Xv != GL |
| 20:12.41 | ``Erik | *shrug* |
| 20:12.53 | Maloeran | Indeed, but I'm looking at mplayer using 0.1% of one core just using the Xv driver |
| 20:12.57 | ``Erik | at one point, I was going to write an ogl mpeg decoder, but *shrug* |
| 20:13.04 | ``Erik | fast cpu's, I guess? |
| 20:13.14 | ``Erik | mpeg is a pretty simple format |
| 20:13.17 | Maloeran | While I'm told that Mark has trouble playing back high-definition videos on his dual-core laptop |
| 20:13.35 | ``Erik | heh |
| 20:13.59 | ``Erik | winderz has trouble doing something simple like, y'know, booting |
| 20:14.00 | ``Erik | O.o |
| 20:14.01 | ``Erik | :) |
| 20:14.19 | Maloeran | :) Meh |
| 20:14.36 | Maloeran | I gave him 1024x768 videos, about 1mb per second of compressed data, and he says it's jerky |
| 20:14.52 | Maloeran | And mplayer doesn't get above 0.1% of cpu use when decoding here, I really don't get it |
| 20:15.01 | ``Erik | mebbe the codec is the biggie? |
| 20:15.28 | Maloeran | I used the msmpegv4 codec on purpose, the Microsoft variant of mpeg4 |
| 20:15.30 | ``Erik | I would suspect that standardized codecs would be disadvantaged on winderz, while ms codecs would groove right along |
| 20:15.35 | ``Erik | heh |
| 20:15.43 | Maloeran | So that windows users can play the video without having to install codecs |
| 20:15.56 | ``Erik | is that the usual form for .avi files? |
| 20:16.17 | Maloeran | It's a common codec for .avi files, yes |
| 20:16.32 | ``Erik | tell mark to quit running all those viruses and porn shit? :D |
| 20:16.45 | Maloeran | I sent him high quality x264 videos and such long ago and he never managed to play them |
| 20:16.47 | ``Erik | is he using like a p166 laptop? O.o |
| 20:16.57 | Maloeran | A Core 2 Duo laptop |
| 20:17.09 | ``Erik | erm, so a mac, not winderz? |
| 20:17.15 | Maloeran | Oh, it's windows |
| 20:17.25 | ``Erik | those use core duo's now? heh |
| 20:17.34 | Maloeran | He also has Linux installed although he doesn't know how to use it |
| 20:17.45 | ``Erik | pointy hairs |
| 20:18.00 | Maloeran | Anyhow, I'm a bit annoyed because I have no idea how to fix that "problem" |
| 20:18.16 | Maloeran | I don't suppose you have any thoughts? |
| 20:18.21 | ``Erik | ask him to use a slightly less inferior machine? hehehhe |
| 20:18.37 | ``Erik | I'd suspect he has other processes gobbling cpu at the same time |
| 20:18.40 | Maloeran | It's a good machine, I have seen it. I have no idea where the slowness comes from |
| 20:18.48 | ``Erik | so the winderz 'process manager' might provide clues |
| 20:19.01 | ``Erik | <-- has no simple 'quick fix' |
| 20:19.43 | ``Erik | probably outlook or word running some ugly macro, heh |
| 20:19.55 | Maloeran | msmpeg4-v2 decoding, very simple stuff, just 1024x768 at 20 frames per second, 1mb of compressed data to read per second... I'm sure I could run that on my amd-k6! |
| 20:20.31 | Maloeran | Mmmhm, carbohydrates |
| 20:20.48 | ``Erik | 'cept smothered in shredded bacon and cheese and sour cream, heh |
| 20:20.48 | ``Erik | :D |
| 20:20.50 | ``Erik | mmm, fat. |
| 20:20.58 | Maloeran | Oh. :) |
| 20:21.37 | Maloeran | Is it possible that windows wouldn't have video drivers installed and use Vesa or something? I thought they had passed that stage |
| 20:22.11 | Maloeran | Perhaps the machine has trouble pushing 60mb of data to video memory per second *shivers* |
| 20:22.21 | louipc | that's unfortunate |
| 20:25.02 | Maloeran | Okay, it's confirmed, the video plays smoothly on an AMD-k6 333mhz with windows 98. But not a manager's Core 2 Duo laptop |
| 20:25.15 | Maloeran | not on* a |
| 20:26.04 | louipc | no way! |
| 20:26.15 | Maloeran | As I said, I don't understand it either |
| 20:26.21 | louipc | Vista? hehhe |
| 20:26.35 | ``Erik | um, perhaps the driver cofnig is all effed up and he's doing it all sw? |
| 20:26.37 | ``Erik | *shrug* |
| 20:26.41 | ``Erik | with multi-copy buffers? |
| 20:26.43 | ``Erik | *shrug* |
| 20:26.59 | ``Erik | or perhaps the machine figured out the operator has pointy hair and is being mean? :D |
| 20:27.15 | Maloeran | http://www.rayforce.net/m1a2.avi - Here's the video if anyone happens to be on windows |
| 20:27.29 | Maloeran | Eheh Erik, I like that hypothesis :) |
| 20:28.43 | louipc | how about if I'm in Linux? |
| 20:29.24 | Maloeran | It should play very smoothly as far as I can see, 0.1% of cpu use here |
| 20:32.30 | louipc | ~30% for me but I have an old machine |
| 20:36.15 | ``Erik | played without noticable cpu utilization usin gVLC here, on a powerbook pro 2.0 |
| 20:36.30 | ``Erik | with 'world of warcraft' running, to boot... |
| 20:36.39 | louipc | hah |
| 20:36.47 | ``Erik | two processessors, 3 lights, first hit? |
| 20:36.49 | Maloeran | I really wonder how the video decoding can be so cheap, it's puzzling me |
| 20:37.07 | louipc | mine's a 866MHz PIII |
| 20:37.14 | Maloeran | That's correct. The two processors got 4 cores each though |
| 20:37.27 | ``Erik | ah, so that's an 8 cor epass to push that 20 fps |
| 20:37.42 | ``Erik | and I was about to be impressed :> |
| 20:37.59 | Maloeran | I'm sorry I wasn't up to the task :) |
| 20:38.30 | ``Erik | 20 fps at that rez on even 8 cores is not trivial |
| 20:38.41 | louipc | not quite a regular desktop |
| 20:38.43 | ``Erik | imagine running 1/10 the tirangles, like an ogl came |
| 20:38.45 | ``Erik | game |
| 20:39.01 | ``Erik | (that's the shell m1 from the cinema site, right?) |
| 20:39.19 | Maloeran | Yes, it's the same M1 model Justin gave me about two years ago |
| 20:39.27 | ``Erik | probably NOT the best model to be showing around, btw, I think it's a limited distribution dealie |
| 20:39.49 | ``Erik | yanking the havoc or hilux might be safer :) |
| 20:39.50 | Maloeran | Hum. I was told I could "show" it around, but not distribute it |
| 20:39.59 | Maloeran | Where can I get these? |
| 20:40.00 | ``Erik | by justin... |
| 20:40.21 | ``Erik | I surspect that he was techinically funding when he 'distributed' it to you |
| 20:40.32 | ``Erik | havoc is in the brlcad repo, unencumbered |
| 20:41.01 | ``Erik | I believe the hilux has been approved for unencumbered distribution, but hasn't actually been shoved in the repo yet... video of it should be no issue, though |
| 20:41.13 | ``Erik | given subcontractor relation |
| 20:41.47 | Maloeran | Thanks, I'll have a look at the Havoc |
| 20:43.25 | Maloeran | Oh. Video decoding uses XvMC, for which there are Nvidia drivers for hardware decoding. Neat stuff |
| 20:44.13 | ``Erik | heh |
| 20:44.18 | ``Erik | cool |
| 20:46.07 | Maloeran | Eh yes, looks like it has already beenn done |
| 20:46.55 | ``Erik | hum, that page is all like 6 years old |
| 20:47.52 | ``Erik | in fact, that first item is implemented in gtk1.2 |
| 20:48.14 | ``Erik | and goes back to gtk 0.30 |
| 20:48.17 | ``Erik | iirc |
| 20:48.28 | ``Erik | '96ish |
| 20:48.31 | ``Erik | mebbe '97 |
| 20:49.12 | ``Erik | the salt and cheese on those taters are so making me want more salt and cheese !#~! O.o grar. |
| 20:50.02 | Maloeran | Mmhm :). I'm just curious, you kept your university user so many years after you left? |
| 20:50.16 | ``Erik | heh, anti-kosher... pig mixed with cheese, sheesh |
| 20:50.23 | Maloeran | As I assume math.missouristate.edu is where you once stsudied |
| 20:50.25 | Maloeran | studied, too |
| 20:50.44 | ``Erik | yes, when at the uni, I volunteered tutoring to a professor in the math dept, and still aid him in trickier sysadmin duties |
| 20:50.54 | Maloeran | http://www-rocq1.inria.fr/gamma/download/affichage.php?dir=MILITARY/&name=Y4937_Biotank - That is one mean looking tank |
| 20:50.57 | ``Erik | in return, I have an account as long as te dept has a machine |
| 20:51.23 | Maloeran | Nice |
| 20:51.35 | ``Erik | same guy who gave me the 2 hour crash course in omfg real quaternions |
| 20:51.49 | ``Erik | which is why I have a slightly different view of them than your typical ogl coder |
| 20:52.26 | ``Erik | um, I MIGHT be able to get you some other models, like a real t62 (with guts) |
| 20:52.32 | ``Erik | I'll have to talk to people, though |
| 20:52.40 | ``Erik | and it'd come in BRL-CAD format |
| 20:53.00 | Maloeran | *nods* I understood quaternions after staring at code using quats for 2 weeks in high school, and just playing with the numbers a lot. It's not a typical approach |
| 20:53.13 | Maloeran | It's fine, I got a g2rtgg converter |
| 20:53.38 | ``Erik | I kinda got a rough overview of a coders view of quats... then went to the prof and got the mathematical background, so a lot of the weird coder shit became obvious |
| 20:53.54 | ``Erik | like groking that it's 3 imaginary orthogenal axis with a real scalar |
| 20:54.11 | Maloeran | Yes, I got that part. I have very little mathematical background |
| 20:54.34 | Maloeran | "A proof? What's that? Meh, just write the code to test 1 billion cases over the night." |
| 20:55.06 | ``Erik | ah, but a proof isn't worth 1billion tests, it's worth infinity tests |
| 20:55.42 | Maloeran | Sure so, but something can be "true enough" for me after 1 billion cases :) |
| 20:55.46 | ``Erik | program provability is a skeery but awesome path in computer science |
| 20:56.08 | ``Erik | and the difference is between "good enough" and "omfg right" |
| 20:56.20 | Maloeran | Eheh, well put |
| 20:56.33 | ``Erik | if you're painting a display for a vidoe game or sim, whatever, but if peoples lives are on the line, i'd rather have a provable system |
| 20:56.37 | ``Erik | :) |
| 20:57.07 | Maloeran | True. I'm just definitely not a mathematician |
| 20:57.48 | ``Erik | me, iether... I'm just old, and becoming more and more concerned with 'critical' software and the reprecussions of an oops |
| 20:58.08 | Maloeran | Many years ago, I solved integrals by observing relations between solving integrals by brute-force and the original equation. I didn't know the background, I didn't even know what the word "integral" was or meant, but it worked for me |
| 20:58.30 | ``Erik | integrals are trivial to brute force |
| 20:58.52 | ``Erik | the notion of "an area under a curve" is easily understnadable by just about anyone |
| 20:58.53 | ``Erik | :) |
| 20:59.00 | Maloeran | Sure, and I used that to obtain the real integral, from which deductions can be made to directly obtain any integral |
| 20:59.41 | ``Erik | of course, for some curves, you can only approximate given a statement of range.. :) |
| 20:59.58 | ``Erik | without dropping to a base numerical solver |
| 21:00.34 | Maloeran | I'm still very much biased towards "brute-forcing" my way through problems, in order to find better solutions, rather than mathematically proving anything |
| 21:00.47 | ``Erik | <-- has a fistful of solvers in haskell and scheme... |
| 21:00.50 | louipc | :( |
| 21:01.04 | ``Erik | and my solvers generally tend to be 2-5 lines of code and work faster than the equivelant 3 pages of java or c++ |
| 21:01.08 | ``Erik | :) |
| 21:02.21 | Maloeran | In a programmer's world, maths are impure anyway, all numbers got limited precision. True mathematial proofs can end up false when applied |
| 21:02.36 | ``Erik | not true |
| 21:02.48 | ``Erik | there are mechanisms to deal with true numbers |
| 21:03.02 | ``Erik | 'scheme' does it automatically, and for C, there are libraries such as gpm |
| 21:03.24 | ``Erik | the issue is if you're willing to pay the cost for the accuracy |
| 21:03.28 | ``Erik | and that's an engineering decision :) |
| 21:04.41 | Maloeran | Are libraries such as gpm strictly correct even with irrational numbers? |
| 21:04.57 | *** join/#brlcad docelic (n=docelic@212.15.170.100) | |
| 21:05.27 | ``Erik | I believe so... I think gpm deforms to an unlimited form when the ieee format is insufficient |
| 21:05.41 | ``Erik | so it's slow and has teh ability to gobble buttloads of memory |
| 21:05.49 | ``Erik | but will give you omfg right values |
| 21:05.53 | Maloeran | Sure, but the square root of 2.0 is never going to be exact unless you store it sqrt(2) directly |
| 21:06.12 | Maloeran | Meaning the complexity of your number becomes a long equation which is totally impractical |
| 21:06.24 | ``Erik | <-- unsure of exactly how gpm handles that |
| 21:06.55 | Maloeran | I don't know either, but I suspect that even gpm wouldn't be strictly "true" mathematically speaking. True proofs can end up false |
| 21:07.13 | ``Erik | be interesting to explore that |
| 21:07.16 | Maloeran | http://www-rocq1.inria.fr/gamma/download/affichage.php?dir=MILITARY/&name=Y4937_Biotank - Ah, I really like that model, it's just so ugly! I think I'll send Mark a video of it |
| 21:07.42 | ``Erik | is that the same on you sent earlier? |
| 21:08.03 | Maloeran | Same url, yes |
| 21:08.08 | ``Erik | no one dues fugly like the french *sigh* |
| 21:08.14 | ``Erik | s/u/o/ |
| 21:09.06 | ``Erik | germans may have fat chicks with horns on their helmets, but the rench have... that... |
| 21:09.06 | ``Erik | :D |
| 21:09.08 | Maloeran | On the battlefield, I would laugh if faced with such a vehicule. It could be a terribly weapon |
| 21:09.17 | Maloeran | terrible* |
| 21:09.51 | ``Erik | but I bet the back of the vehicle is ok to look at... f it's french, that's the part any opposing force would see... O:-) |
| 21:09.58 | Maloeran | I'm reaally not finding where the M1 came from |
| 21:10.18 | louipc | wtf is that? haha |
| 21:10.27 | ``Erik | then it's probably a model worth avoiding :( |
| 21:11.00 | ``Erik | even though it's legit and shit, ti could still cause issues when small minded people make idiotic assumptions |
| 21:11.13 | ``Erik | (like that no non-US person could ever do any tech worth doing... a common but WRONG view) |
| 21:11.43 | Maloeran | That's a... common view? |
| 21:11.55 | ``Erik | among small minded people, yes |
| 21:12.11 | ``Erik | I have no other explaination for the fucktarded export laws in the us |
| 21:13.47 | Maloeran | I'm still amazed by how so many americans know little about the world out there, it's a big planet |
| 21:13.59 | ``Erik | *shrug* |
| 21:14.12 | ``Erik | I've talked to equally ignorant people from many other countries, including canuckia |
| 21:15.04 | ``Erik | people around toronot, sheesh |
| 21:15.06 | ``Erik | all kinds of special |
| 21:15.07 | ``Erik | :) |
| 21:15.25 | louipc | :O |
| 21:15.44 | Maloeran | I think there's just too much misplaced patriotism, heavily fed to the population by the medias, it's kind of scary |
| 21:16.19 | ``Erik | that's the vocal minority, I hope |
| 21:16.31 | Maloeran | Patriotism blinds people to the fact, it narrows their mind. It's socially harmful, yet it's seen as a good thing down there |
| 21:17.25 | Maloeran | I hope so too, Erik, I certainly do |
| 21:20.11 | louipc | there was an issue with citizens of certain countries doing work on US helicopters |
| 21:20.34 | louipc | where bell helicopters had to lay them off, I think they were still canadian citizens too |
| 21:22.03 | Maloeran | Yes, I remember hearing about this. You once deported a canadian citizen travelling to the states, an university professor, to Syria... because he had dual-citizenship with Syria. That was weird |
| 21:22.28 | louipc | rcmp tipped off us authorities, mistakenly though |
| 21:24.16 | Maloeran | Erik or anyone else, what would you recommend as way to find out the "top level" region list to pass to db_walk_tree() to be able to read out a model? |
| 21:24.35 | ``Erik | 'tops'? |
| 21:24.37 | Maloeran | I'm a bit tired of having to look into the .g files for some kind of appropriately named string |
| 21:24.48 | ``Erik | mged -c file.g tops |
| 21:24.51 | Maloeran | How would I do it from code? |
| 21:25.06 | Maloeran | This is for the g2rtgg extractor, which is based from Lee's code |
| 21:25.12 | ``Erik | um, I don't remember, heh, but the 'tops' command sould be fairly easy to find |
| 21:25.27 | ``Erik | I'd imagine it's a variant of the 'ls' code |
| 21:26.52 | ``Erik | an os unto itself.. *cough* |
| 21:31.46 | Maloeran | Hum, I guess I'll look into that. It's kind of annoying this task of having to find the name of whatever you are looking for in the file, I wish I could just say "all of it" |
| 21:33.04 | ``Erik | the tops command gives you the top level entities |
| 21:33.22 | ``Erik | given those and the ability to traverse recursively, you have 'all of it' |
| 21:33.41 | ``Erik | you'd have to look into the specific implementation, though :) I dunno off teh top of my head |
| 21:34.37 | Maloeran | Yes, I'm trying to make sense of librt/wdb_obj.c |
| 21:40.41 | Maloeran | I'm not actually finding any Bags Of Triangles in havoc.g, I guess the geometry would have to be triangulated, somehow |
| 21:45.37 | ``Erik | yeah, the nmg routines |
| 22:10.17 | tessier_ | How does brl-cad compare to something like autocad? |
| 22:10.39 | tessier_ | I am looking for something to design model airplanes and do some solid modeling. |
| 22:11.10 | tessier_ | Calculate surface areas, make sure internal components fit, plot patterns for gluing onto materials for cutting etc. |
| 22:13.22 | louipc | yeah I think BRL-CAD is good for that sort of thing |
| 22:13.28 | louipc | not really for drafting though |
| 22:13.35 | ``Erik | not so much plotting patterns |
| 22:13.41 | ``Erik | but figurng out if things fit, yeah... |
| 22:13.51 | tessier_ | Well, it can print out a 2d diagram onto paper right? |
| 22:13.57 | louipc | not really |
| 22:14.06 | louipc | (drafting) |
| 22:14.18 | tessier_ | hrm...how can it do all these other things but not handle that? |
| 22:14.24 | ``Erik | it's more an analysis tool, not a building tool |
| 22:14.25 | louipc | no clue haha |
| 22:15.36 | ``Erik | the kinda core intent is to have a good 'complete' model, pop a ray through it and get a solid understanding of what that ray hits, the depth of the hit, in and out normals, ... a 'segment list', so drafting shtuff just ain't there |
| 22:16.24 | ``Erik | (for the last twenty or so years, every dollar has been thrown at figuring out how bullets go through things, not anything construction oriented... so it's weak in that area... feel free to improve it, it's open source :D ) |
| 22:16.39 | tessier_ | So Linux still has no good drafting tools? :( |
| 22:17.04 | louipc | tessier_: qcad is what people use pretty much |
| 22:17.05 | tessier_ | ``Erik: Yes although full scale stuff is a possibility also. |
| 22:17.15 | tessier_ | louipc: Funny. I used to host the qcad website. :) |
| 22:17.20 | louipc | if you're familiar with autocad qcad is easy to pick up |
| 22:17.22 | ``Erik | <-- cut off a finger doing r/c, wants to get back into it... mebbe doing ellectrics |
| 22:17.22 | louipc | hahah |
| 22:17.25 | tessier_ | But it has always seemed like a toy to me. But that was years ago. I should check it out again. |
| 22:17.28 | tessier_ | ``Erik: Electrics rock now. |
| 22:17.34 | ``Erik | http://math.missouristate.edu/~erik/finger/ |
| 22:17.37 | ``Erik | so I've heard |
| 22:17.45 | tessier_ | louipc: In fact, I convinced the qcad author to go GPL. But in 95 or so. |
| 22:17.56 | louipc | yeah I'm not so much a fan but, it works I guess |
| 22:18.02 | ``Erik | one of my buddies, the guy who did the oepnnurbs shtuff (jlowenz) is into electrics... |
| 22:18.04 | tessier_ | Can I import things from qcad to brl-cad in any way? |
| 22:18.09 | louipc | dxf |
| 22:18.22 | ``Erik | 2d things in dxf don't xfer to brlcad so very well |
| 22:18.25 | tessier_ | I am into gliders and electrics. I used to do gas way back in high school (early 90's) but the electric stuff is so much better now. |
| 22:18.57 | louipc | tessier_: nice about the GPL :D |
| 22:19.07 | ``Erik | I tried gas in '90 or so, backed off, did it again in '03/'04, hwacked my finger and have been too chickenshit to bothr since |
| 22:19.28 | tessier_ | ``Erik: You will prefer electric then. You probably whacked your finger starting or adjusting mixture right? |
| 22:19.45 | ``Erik | adjusting one of twingy's planes, yes |
| 22:19.48 | louipc | :D |
| 22:19.50 | ``Erik | after I lost one |
| 22:19.52 | tessier_ | Electric is so much nicer. You never have the engine sitting around idling and you have no problem with mixture or starting. |
| 22:20.02 | ``Erik | that's why I've been thinking about it :) |
| 22:20.16 | louipc | and you can use it for stealth reconnaisance? |
| 22:20.18 | tessier_ | Hopefully a combination of qcad/brl-cad can do what I need |
| 22:20.18 | ``Erik | but the ~600 drive cost ... unless it's dropped a lot |
| 22:20.29 | tessier_ | ``Erik: No way dude. Get a speed 400 powered plane. Dirt cheap. |
| 22:20.38 | tessier_ | $10 for the motor, maybe $40 for the ESC, I don't recall. |
| 22:20.43 | tessier_ | Another $20 for a battery and you have a whole power system. |
| 22:20.46 | ``Erik | if you can hack C and tcl, please feel free to 'fix' brlcad, yo |
| 22:20.48 | louipc | whoa |
| 22:20.51 | ``Erik | BRL-CAD rather |
| 22:20.52 | tessier_ | Actually motors might be way cheaper now. |
| 22:20.59 | ``Erik | brlcad might not appreciate being fixed :> |
| 22:21.04 | louipc | ``Erik: that does get confusing haha |
| 22:21.07 | tessier_ | ``Erik: That's another thing: I kinda wish brl-cad were scriptable in lisp or something like autocad. |
| 22:21.12 | tessier_ | Doing things in C these days is just silly. |
| 22:21.13 | ``Erik | oh, me too |
| 22:21.16 | tessier_ | But I understand brlcad is very old. |
| 22:21.18 | ``Erik | I'm a scheme geek |
| 22:21.24 | ``Erik | but BRL-CAD is married to tcl |
| 22:21.37 | tessier_ | ``Erik: Me too although I have never really done anythign with scheme. I've read the Little Schemer and a few other books though. |
| 22:21.38 | louipc | tessier_: you can script in Tcl |
| 22:21.49 | tessier_ | louipc: Yeah, tcl isn't too bad. |
| 22:21.54 | ``Erik | there's been talk about hooking it into 'swig', but so much of the math shtuff is macro based, it becomes undoable |
| 22:21.54 | tessier_ | I'm just not as familiar with it. |
| 22:22.35 | ``Erik | I'd imagine that it wouldn't be TOO terribly difficult to develope a lithp variant on tcl |
| 22:23.01 | ``Erik | turing complete is turing complete, y'know |
| 22:23.42 | louipc | Linux is silly |
| 22:23.49 | ``Erik | your mom is silly |
| 22:24.02 | louipc | :O |
| 22:24.08 | tessier_ | Maloeran: For the most part that is true. Programmer time and buffer overruns are expensive. |
| 22:24.16 | ``Erik | C is good for low level things... *shrug* linux is a hair better than winderz, not bsd cool, but *shrug* :) |
| 22:24.24 | louipc | a hair! |
| 22:24.36 | tessier_ | ``Erik: The vast majority of stuff is not low level. |
| 22:24.52 | louipc | yeah true |
| 22:24.53 | ``Erik | I completely agree, tessier... but mal was about ready to drop a brick in his shorts there ;> |
| 22:25.10 | ``Erik | <-- tends to use ruby or scheme as a first shot for most things these days |
| 22:25.33 | tessier_ | ``Erik: Only because he has been coding C for years and cannot appreciate how much more efficient higher level languages are because they represent a threat to the usefulness of his existing knowledge. :) |
| 22:25.43 | ``Erik | hahaha |
| 22:25.46 | ``Erik | uh oh |
| 22:25.52 | ``Erik | don't say nothin' 'bout assembly, mal will pop! |
| 22:25.53 | ``Erik | :D |
| 22:25.55 | ``Erik | *duck* |
| 22:25.55 | tessier_ | Efficient in terms of programmer time (and therefore money) and darn near as efficient in terms of cpu cycles too. |
| 22:26.17 | Maloeran | tessier_, buffer overruns is a silly programmer mistake, bad programmers shouldn't use C to begin with. Some complex tasks are actually less bothersome to perform in C, for it really lets you do what you want to do |
| 22:26.18 | ``Erik | it's a matter of how assess value to developer time |
| 22:26.26 | ``Erik | ooooooold people tend to put a lot of value on time |
| 22:26.31 | ``Erik | young folk tend to view it as 'free' |
| 22:26.39 | Maloeran | Plus of course, efficiency of good C code can hardly be compared with any scripting language |
| 22:26.39 | tessier_ | Assembly is fun for understanding how architectures work and for programming microcontrollers. |
| 22:27.17 | tessier_ | Maloeran: But programmers aren't perfect. They have been making that mistake for decades. Even the best ones. They are inevitable. |
| 22:28.06 | Maloeran | Indeed. And that's why good Operating Systems have some security features, so that we won't pay a global hit in performance just in case there's a buffer overrun somewhere |
| 22:28.20 | ``Erik | sometimes, I look at some of their stuff and go "fucking brilliant", other times, I go "wtff" |
| 22:28.42 | ``Erik | heh, so you're using obsd these days, mal? :> *duck* |
| 22:28.53 | tessier_ | Critical loops that get executed zillions of times can be in C and assembly. Anything else, including word processors and the like which hardly ever use cpu and spend all their time waiting on programmer input, should probably be in a higher level language. |
| 22:29.06 | tessier_ | That goes for mail servers, dns servers, etc also. They spend all their time waiting on IO. |
| 22:29.20 | ``Erik | :D |
| 22:29.31 | tessier_ | Link to a C implementation of your hashtable function or whatever and do all the other silly stuff in a HLL |
| 22:29.38 | Maloeran | That I agree, languages should be used for what they are best suited for. There's still much room for C out there |
| 22:29.55 | louipc | yep |
| 22:30.01 | tessier_ | There's tons of room for C. But I think it is currently taking up more room than it rightfully deserves. :) |
| 22:30.09 | tessier_ | Fortunately that is changing though. |
| 22:30.10 | ``Erik | code it in scheme, when you find a bit of scheme that you simply can't make fast enough, rewrite it in C... when you find a bit of C that can't possibly be rewritten to be fast enough, rewrite it in asm... if you find a bit of asm that can't possibly be rewritten to be fast enough, go back to the drawing board, yo |
| 22:30.21 | tessier_ | ``Erik: Exactly. FFI for the win! |
| 22:30.46 | ``Erik | <-- feels that c++ and java simply don't belong... they're tools to limit the damage incompetents can do, not tools to extend the ability of competents :( |
| 22:30.51 | Maloeran | I usually go back to the drawing board before the assembly step, but good enough :) |
| 22:31.14 | tessier_ | ``Erik: Agreed. I don't see much good use for java. But lots of people are brainwashed with it. |
| 22:31.18 | ``Erik | (and limited incompetence sucks compared to a little competence *cough*) |
| 22:31.35 | tessier_ | C++ sure seemed cool way back when and even I would have agreed it was a good way to go once upon a time but I have wisened up since then. |
| 22:31.41 | Maloeran | tessier_, I think C should be the language of choice for all core libraries and related low-level software, I'm actually worried that it's less being used for new software these days |
| 22:31.57 | ``Erik | there're bits of jabba I like, I think it's better than c++, but there're bits I dont' like... and in practice, it's grossly abused |
| 22:32.04 | tessier_ | Maloeran: I guess it depends on where you draw the line for low-level. |
| 22:32.39 | ``Erik | <-- would rather have a boffo scheme or smalltalk core library than a good C one... *shrug* :) |
| 22:33.05 | ``Erik | mebbe I'm just sick in the head |
| 22:33.16 | louipc | they force java in school |
| 22:34.08 | Maloeran | Sometimes, even C seems too high level for me. Compilers are so incompetent, when one cares about performance |
| 22:34.17 | ``Erik | when I wasi n college (the second time), the were migrating to jabba the last year I was there... |
| 22:34.19 | Maloeran | It's so tempting to just get down in assembly for an instant >30% performance boost |
| 22:34.28 | Maloeran | I think I should do that before Siggraph |
| 22:34.46 | ``Erik | 30% with no change in linearality can't comopete with even a loss of static and improved 'big oh' |
| 22:34.46 | ``Erik | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:34.51 | tessier_ | Maloeran: One rarely needs to care about performance these days. A few microseconds different in my code execution time matters little to me. :) |
| 22:35.13 | tessier_ | I tend to do a lot of text processing, system administrator type stuff, network IO, web applications, etc. |
| 22:35.16 | ``Erik | "my assembly form outruns this high level one, up to 10 memory locations... *cough*" |
| 22:35.22 | tessier_ | IO is always the bottleneck before cpu in my projects. |
| 22:35.46 | tessier_ | For something like raytracing I can totally see where cpu counts. |
| 22:36.00 | tessier_ | But few people have the need to implement raytracers. |
| 22:36.18 | ``Erik | (mal is heavy into high speed raytracing lately) |
| 22:37.11 | tessier_ | I see. |
| 22:37.16 | ``Erik | tessier: if you want to make BRL-CAD work for you, we'd be happy to discuss the path from point A to point B, it's mostly a matter of A) not knowing the drafting world so well and B) not having the time to do it :/ |
| 22:37.18 | tessier_ | Maloeran: I bet you use vi. :) |
| 22:37.27 | ``Erik | hey, shut up, I use vim :( |
| 22:37.37 | tessier_ | ``Erik: You code scheme in vim? |
| 22:37.40 | ``Erik | yup |
| 22:37.44 | tessier_ | I like vim just fine. Been using it for 10 years. |
| 22:37.50 | tessier_ | But coding scheme in vim seems a bit nutty. |
| 22:37.58 | ``Erik | there're addons to make it better |
| 22:38.05 | tessier_ | I learned emacs for programming tasks and use vi for everything else. |
| 22:38.05 | ``Erik | vim has a dialect of schemme somewhere under the hood |
| 22:38.18 | ``Erik | a lot more 'normal' compared to modern languages than elithp |
| 22:38.22 | tessier_ | It bugs me that that they wrote their own extension language for vim |
| 22:38.41 | tessier_ | I know you can tie python and other stuff into it. But one standard extension language that everyone uses seems like a better way to go. |
| 22:38.42 | louipc | well there's already sketch objects in BRL-CAD |
| 22:38.51 | ``Erik | vim has pluggable extensions... mine are built with python, ruby, and the internal scheme/lithp |
| 22:39.00 | ``Erik | plus cscope, and with the gui disabled |
| 22:39.03 | tessier_ | If brl-cad doesn't work for drafting it probably isn't what I need. Although I wish I could draft and then produce a 3d model. |
| 22:39.23 | tessier_ | So I don't have to draw everything twice. |
| 22:39.30 | louipc | yeah |
| 22:39.35 | tessier_ | Wish I could draw in a speed 400 motor and then use that same dawing in both. |
| 22:39.46 | ``Erik | BRL-CAD can do 3d models, and has something called "rtedge" that attempts to do line drawings |
| 22:40.06 | ``Erik | it cannot do dimension lines at this time, and rtedge is... nonoptimal |
| 22:40.38 | ``Erik | if you're just wanting something to help cut balsa and place bits, rtedge MIGHT be sufficient |
| 22:40.52 | ``Erik | not something that can be passed to a machine cutter though |
| 22:41.28 | tessier_ | I'm not fortunately enough to have a machine cutter. |
| 22:41.52 | tessier_ | But I would like something I can print 2d blueprints from. I'm not so interested in balsa as I am in composite design. |
| 22:41.55 | louipc | what needs dimensioning can be arbitrary and needs to be selected by the drafter |
| 22:42.00 | tessier_ | I make stuff from fiberglass, carbon fiber, expoxy resin, etc. |
| 22:42.09 | ``Erik | ummmmmmmm |
| 22:42.11 | ``Erik | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RONJA |
| 22:42.24 | tessier_ | 2d drawings are mostly for patterns, jigs, etc. And 2d parts fitting and layout planning although 3d would be better for that. |
| 22:42.36 | ``Erik | that device was designed and raytraced using BRL-CAD by one of the dudes who hangs out here |
| 22:42.51 | ``Erik | if you go to the web page, he has lots of 'rtedge' displays |
| 22:43.10 | ``Erik | he even found a funky race condition bug in rtedge :) |
| 22:43.34 | ``Erik | http://ronja.twibright.com/ |
| 22:47.16 | ``Erik | (unfortunate that he didn't use the multispectral raytracing capabilities to optimize configuration, but *shrug* it got the job done) |
| 22:47.44 | tessier_ | Wow, that RONJA device is really cool |
| 22:49.26 | ``Erik | http://ronja.twibright.com/holder/index.php is the output of rtedge |
| 22:49.37 | ``Erik | with the bug, heh |
| 22:49.59 | ``Erik | <-- fixed it, but doesn't remember if the fix made it to 7.10.0 or not... 7.10.2 should be out 'any day now' |
| 22:50.07 | ``Erik | if brlcad would get off his duff O.o :> *duck* |
| 22:50.28 | tessier_ | What does rtedge do exactly? |
| 22:50.55 | louipc | cool |
| 22:51.03 | ``Erik | um, fires proximity rays and if the difference in first hit is above a threshold, draws a line there |
| 22:51.50 | ``Erik | but at the moment, the threshold is hard coded and more designed for reasonably large vehicles (like, 10m long... think tanks) |
| 22:52.38 | tessier_ | I see. |
| 22:52.52 | tessier_ | Ever heard of CADIA? |
| 22:53.14 | ``Erik | sounds semi-familiar |
| 22:53.38 | tessier_ | http://www.nextcraft.com/rcprojects.html |
| 22:53.55 | tessier_ | Check out those models. All rendered in 3d. This guy is a master. |
| 22:54.24 | ``Erik | hm |
| 22:54.34 | ``Erik | ummm |
| 22:54.52 | ``Erik | one of the nifty things of brlcad is the ability to estimate CM, total mass, etc |
| 22:57.03 | tessier_ | Yes, that could be handy |
| 22:57.40 | ``Erik | aand there's effort to export to a FEM format, uhhh, 'qubit', which could do flow analysis |
| 22:58.01 | ``Erik | qubit might not be public, though :/ |
| 22:58.14 | tessier_ | Total mass? So you tell it how much each of the materials weighs etc? |
| 22:58.21 | louipc | tessier_: what's cadia? |
| 22:59.10 | ``Erik | yes, every region can have a material associated, density of the material is defined and it can sum it all up |
| 22:59.40 | tessier_ | http://www.nextcraft.com/nextcraft_products.html |
| 22:59.43 | ``Erik | I think it's still all done with 'GIFT' materials, which tend to be skewed towards heavier harder things |
| 22:59.49 | tessier_ | I think cadia is what this guy uses for his 3d models but I'm not sure. |
| 22:59.57 | ``Erik | like, several kinds of steel, some hard woods, don't think balsa is a standard bit |
| 23:00.02 | ``Erik | but could easily be added |
| 23:00.02 | tessier_ | Can I define my own materials? |
| 23:00.07 | ``Erik | yeah |
| 23:00.18 | tessier_ | And units? Like draw a speed 400 motor and say it weighs this much and has a center of mass/gravity at a particular location? |
| 23:00.35 | ``Erik | the .g db understands ints, and there's a materials file that's ascii |
| 23:00.41 | tessier_ | That would be pretty handy for building models. |
| 23:01.02 | ``Erik | ummm, it understands units, I dunno if you can skew like that, um, though if you defined the guts of the 400 motor, it SHOULD come out correct |
| 23:01.30 | ``Erik | or you could make the motor otu of two cylinders (plus surface crap) and assign different 'effective mass' coefficients for the bits to emulate the correct balance |
| 23:03.34 | ``Erik | the only bit that might be seriously challenging would be shaped bits (nose cones, the inital scoop on the rudder, etc) and skinning :/ otherwise, most r/c planes are awfully simple |
| 23:03.51 | ``Erik | and 'advanced' primitives like the "pipe" goes perfectly with control gear |
| 23:04.47 | ``Erik | naturally, the engineering of how to assemble it will be up to the model developer, but with the raytracing abilities, you could 'see' a proposed model at each step of assembly |
| 23:06.12 | ``Erik | there's even a 'best fit' project on the table that'd go well for laying out how to cut up planks of balsa, once it's implemented :) |
| 23:09.54 | ``Erik | heh "spel chek" |
| 23:30.05 | *** join/#brlcad SWPadnos_ (n=Me@dsl245.esjtvtli.sover.net) | |
