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| 02:18.38 | CIA-4 | BRL-CAD: 03johnranderson * 10brlcad/src/librt/wdb_obj.c: |
| 02:18.38 | CIA-4 | BRL-CAD: dbconcat command was not insuring unique names if neither the -s nor the -p |
| 02:18.38 | CIA-4 | BRL-CAD: options were used. Now adds suffix as needed (-s) by default. This fixes |
| 02:18.38 | CIA-4 | BRL-CAD: bug #1708349 "database corruption in mged 7.8.4". |
| 04:06.52 | CIA-4 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * 10brlcad/NEWS: |
| 04:06.52 | CIA-4 | BRL-CAD: john fixed a database corruption bug caused during dbconcat. dbconcat command |
| 04:06.52 | CIA-4 | BRL-CAD: was not insuring unique names if neither the -s nor the -p options were used. |
| 04:06.52 | CIA-4 | BRL-CAD: Now adds suffix as needed (-s) by default. This fixed bug #1708349 'database |
| 04:06.52 | CIA-4 | BRL-CAD: corruption in mged 7.8.4'. shibby sweet. |
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| 12:48.54 | *** join/#brlcad fleeky (n=boogie@port-213-148-156-2.static.qsc.de) | |
| 12:48.57 | fleeky | hello |
| 12:49.21 | fleeky | ive recently become interested in csg modelling techniques and was wondering if brlcad is the best choice or not |
| 12:49.39 | fleeky | basically im looking for something that acts much like a normal modelling program but for csg objects instead of vertice |
| 12:49.59 | fleeky | so you can select a group of csg objects .. duplicate them rotate / scale / move them |
| 12:50.11 | fleeky | change there csg ops |
| 12:50.13 | fleeky | etc |
| 12:50.29 | fleeky | i kindof momentarily checked out brl but was a bit daunted at first |
| 12:52.05 | clock_ | fleeky: yes then brl-cad is suitable |
| 12:52.07 | fleeky | also the reason im interested is i am currently developing for a game engine and need a good way to create level geometry .. the game supports obj files as models so basically everything is a model this is nice but creating buildings and such in modelling programs is just not a good idea.. so ive come in search of csg stuff |
| 12:52.16 | brlcad | heh, brl-cad is one of the original CSG modeling systems, it doesn't get much more fundamental |
| 12:52.27 | fleeky | yeah there also really isnt much out there |
| 12:52.53 | fleeky | and things like unrealed , hammer, gtk-radiant are Horribly limiting in terms of the csg modelling you can do |
| 12:53.15 | fleeky | do you guys have link that can explain the general workflow of how to model in brl-cad? |
| 12:53.44 | fleeky | i can atleast create a new database document thingy but for instance can it render things in a solid shaded phong lighting type mode? |
| 12:53.46 | brlcad | fleeky: there are a slew of introductory documents on the website, I'd suggest browsing through them one at a time |
| 12:53.54 | fleeky | ah ok thanks |
| 12:53.56 | brlcad | i.e. Documents section on http://brlcad.org |
| 12:54.00 | fleeky | yeah |
| 12:54.01 | brlcad | just go down the list |
| 12:54.06 | fleeky | alrighty then |
| 12:54.10 | clock_ | fleeky: it has even more advanced lighting modes |
| 12:54.13 | brlcad | you'll even get to some of the intro programming aspects |
| 12:54.18 | fleeky | but realtime clock? |
| 12:54.32 | clock_ | you can press "raytrace" and wait a few seconds |
| 12:54.36 | fleeky | nah |
| 12:54.37 | clock_ | not realtime though |
| 12:54.54 | fleeky | so no realtime solid shaded views? |
| 12:55.05 | clock_ | brlcad: I found myself unable to rotate an object - I ended up with typing numerical coordinates into a matrix |
| 12:55.45 | clock_ | brlcad: the help is so unsatisfactory... |
| 12:55.45 | brlcad | there is a high-performance triangle-based ray-trace engine in adrt that would suffice as "realtime", but you're going to be writing the lighting model if you want anything other than basic phong |
| 12:55.45 | fleeky | i just want phong |
| 12:55.46 | fleeky | i dont want to be looking at wireframes all the time |
| 12:56.15 | fleeky | well it helps me to get a better sense of things is all |
| 12:56.25 | clock_ | BRLCAD != doom. It has higher quality of picture. |
| 12:56.35 | fleeky | haha |
| 12:56.37 | fleeky | ofcourse it doesnt |
| 12:56.38 | clock_ | therefore realtime rendering is difficult |
| 12:56.51 | brlcad | depends when/where you're talking about -- the mged tool is the predominant modeling system in brl-cad and that doesn't have an interactive shaded mode -- you primarily visualize via wireframe or ray-tracing |
| 12:56.58 | fleeky | there are realtime csg editors that do solid shading .. too bad they have horrible functionality |
| 12:57.39 | fleeky | is there another tool that will atleast let me see a realtime preview in any kindof solid shaded mode ? |
| 12:57.43 | brlcad | brl-cad's mathematical foundations are also way more extensive than any one of those realtime csg editors |
| 12:57.52 | clock_ | brlcad: means better picture? |
| 12:58.02 | fleeky | yes im sure |
| 12:58.23 | brlcad | if you understand the difference between explicit and implicit geometric representations, it's fairly clear as to why -- there is no interaction surface to display for the evaluated CSG interfaces |
| 12:58.36 | clock_ | brlcad: there was some rotobj primitive where the help said it rotates the object being edited - but it didn't. It rotated everything on the screen. |
| 12:58.51 | brlcad | ray-tracing performs that evaluation efficiently, and preserves the solidity of the object |
| 12:59.00 | fleeky | so basically no there is no tool to do that |
| 12:59.07 | clock_ | brlcad: couldn't this useability be somehow fixed? It's quite slowing down |
| 12:59.12 | brlcad | clock_: means more accurate picture at least, depends what you care about as to whether it's "better" |
| 12:59.39 | brlcad | fleeky: to do what? |
| 12:59.40 | clock_ | brlcad: yes more accurate that's what I mean |
| 13:00.17 | fleeky | basically all i want to do is use a csg editor to create obj geometry .. but with the full functionality of a real csg editor not the limited functionality of bsp style editors |
| 13:00.47 | brlcad | brl-cad's CSG evaluation underpinnings drive actual scientific analyses so it's more important for it to be accurate than have a modeler that looked pretty .. that said, making the editor be more usable is something being worked :) |
| 13:00.54 | clock_ | brlcad: the worst is I do modelling tasks in bursts - say 3 months develop amplifiers, and then I have to make another console for ronja. But I forget all that stuff I learnt before and have to learn a lot of stuff again - because brl-cad is so user-unfriendly |
| 13:01.04 | clock_ | I just need more hints |
| 13:01.47 | fleeky | brlcad what current work is being done ? |
| 13:01.49 | clock_ | help saying instead "rotates object" at least what object it rotates, whether a matrix is considered an object, group an object, in which modes it works and in which not, and what meaning the numbers I type have |
| 13:01.50 | brlcad | fleeky: I'd suggest you at least give it a try as you certainly can certainly get through many of the basics (i.e. go through a few of the exercises in the intro to mged) |
| 13:01.58 | fleeky | cause i ahve a few suggestions in terms of useability .. |
| 13:02.09 | fleeky | yes i will definately do that |
| 13:02.21 | brlcad | clock_: because mged is so user unfriendly, I agree |
| 13:02.24 | fleeky | atleast if nothing better than to get a better understanding of csg editing and what can be improved |
| 13:02.33 | fleeky | thanks again for the help |
| 13:02.40 | clock_ | brlcad: I guess brl-cad was used by specialized professionals who did modeling all the time so they could remember all the details |
| 13:02.42 | fleeky | ill idle here a bit i have to work a bit now though :) |
| 13:02.44 | brlcad | it's meant for use by folks that use it day in and day out, for the most part (for better or worse) |
| 13:02.57 | clock_ | but now since it's out on general public, general public needs more hints to stay in the picture |
| 13:03.09 | clock_ | needs to be more ocassional-user-compliant |
| 13:03.11 | brlcad | of course |
| 13:03.24 | clock_ | which doesn't mean it has to be more annoying for the fulltime specialist |
| 13:03.37 | brlcad | this is all really old topic ;) "fixing" the problem is way more involved than it seems on the surface |
| 13:03.38 | clock_ | I even think it will then help the fulltime specialist make less errors during his work |
| 13:03.52 | clock_ | because he'll notice from the hints if he's going to do an error in his thinking |
| 13:03.57 | brlcad | just to simply "display" an implicit sphere intesected with another sphere.. |
| 13:04.40 | clock_ | brlcad: but I think for the beginning the text files could be ammended - if somewhere is a string saying "rotates the object" it can be changed to "rotates the object, angles given in coordinates (counter-)clockwise" |
| 13:05.03 | clock_ | There's also an issue if the angles are given in the view or in the object coordinate system |
| 13:05.06 | brlcad | it's not a matter of will, desire, or even planning (there is a rather detailed plan forward for fixing the usability problems) .. it's a matter of resources |
| 13:05.12 | brlcad | particularly developer resources |
| 13:05.17 | clock_ | brlcad: aha |
| 13:05.34 | clock_ | brlcad: Bush should cut his Iraq program and assign the resulting money on BRL-CAD |
| 13:06.20 | brlcad | clock_: if you want to fix the documents so that strings such as that are fixed, I'd give you commit access to do so - just let me know :) |
| 13:06.46 | clock_ | brlcad: and do you mind if I ask first which way it is in reality? |
| 13:07.03 | brlcad | which way what is? |
| 13:07.12 | clock_ | well all these ambiguous things |
| 13:07.23 | brlcad | like that statement :) |
| 13:07.31 | brlcad | all these what? |
| 13:08.06 | clock_ | brlcad: all the stuff like whether X Y Z means X Y Z axes or X Y Z planes, if it turns counter- or clockwise, if it's in the view or object coord system... |
| 13:08.39 | brlcad | ah, the consistency of items in mged |
| 13:09.01 | clock_ | brlcad: and is it allowed to make the help items larger? |
| 13:09.07 | clock_ | or do they have to be terse? |
| 13:09.45 | brlcad | well, that's partly because mged is as mged does .. it's a tool that has been developed over the years by several different folks with different skills with respect to usability and consistency but more importantly, it's been developed very minimal fashion ... |
| 13:10.29 | brlcad | someone needed a command that does *blah* and that command is worked with the modeling experts that know mged in and out .. so to them, they just need to know x y z and they already know what that means given the context |
| 13:11.09 | brlcad | because often/generally they asked for it to be that way, and whether what they asked for made it to a label or not was pretty irrelevant for them and the dev that wrote the feature at the time |
| 13:11.35 | brlcad | clock_: they can be larger, terse and clear is good but informative is best |
| 13:12.03 | brlcad | i'd ideally think most of those commands as unix command-line commands deserving of entire manual pages that describe their use in some cases |
| 13:12.22 | brlcad | in the new modeling system, they will have full pages per commands (and be actual stand-alone commands) |
| 13:13.25 | brlcad | for now, I gotta run .. big presentation, brl-cad goodness to report |
| 13:14.26 | clock_ | brlcad: man is OK that's easy to show on the screen |
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| 15:16.27 | ``Erik | O.o |
| 15:17.27 | F_squirty | o.O |
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| 15:48.07 | CIA-4 | BRL-CAD: 03johnranderson * 10brlcad/src/librt/wdb_obj.c: |
| 15:48.07 | CIA-4 | BRL-CAD: Oops! lost the prefix on the last commit. Now adds the optional prefix before |
| 15:48.07 | CIA-4 | BRL-CAD: building a unique name for the dbconcat command. |
| 15:54.06 | CIA-4 | BRL-CAD: 03erikgreenwald * 10brlcad/misc/debian/ (11 files): more debianage |
| 16:00.14 | MinuteElectron | brlcad: Will the site ever expand to have multiple copies in each language? |
| 16:05.34 | MinuteElectron | Doesn't matter, I have future proofed it anyway. |
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| 16:23.21 | MinuteElectron | brlcad: The wiki and Drupal is officially good to go! |
| 16:23.34 | MinuteElectron | Just minor modifications left, but it is now in a usable state. |
| 16:23.44 | MinuteElectron | Well, more usable than before at least. |
| 16:54.05 | brlcad | MinuteElectron: I'd like to think that it will/should |
| 16:54.26 | MinuteElectron | will/should what? |
| 16:54.30 | brlcad | MinuteElectron: have you looked at the site under IE with javascript disabled yet? :) |
| 16:54.38 | MinuteElectron | Not yet... |
| 16:54.43 | MinuteElectron | Maybe later, I gotta run now. |
| 16:54.59 | MinuteElectron | Bye. |
| 16:55.03 | brlcad | that's unfortunately a pretty common configuration for our audience (i.e. just about anyone on a govt machine) |
| 16:55.17 | brlcad | will/should wrt multiple languages |
| 16:55.34 | MinuteElectron | ok |
| 16:55.37 | MinuteElectron | will do later |
| 16:55.39 | MinuteElectron | bye for now |
| 16:55.40 | brlcad | i'd hope we get to the point of having multiple |
| 16:55.42 | brlcad | cya MinuteElectron |
| 16:55.44 | brlcad | thanks again |
| 16:55.47 | brlcad | great work1 |
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| 18:18.17 | brlcad | you gpl'd debian build files?? :) |
| 18:24.53 | ``Erik | heh, that's how they come out of debmake |
| 18:25.48 | ``Erik | and there's some serious breakage on debian that looks just like what was reported on ubuntu due to libtool abuse, so I'm busy fixing that shtuff... |
| 18:25.52 | ``Erik | feels like I fixed it before :/ |
| 18:26.16 | brlcad | so does COPYING out of automake, but that don't make it good :) |
| 18:27.47 | ``Erik | since debmake is gpl'd and it put the gpl stamp on the files, they may've already been under the gpl *shrug* and it doesn't negatively influence us, I don't think? |
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| 19:48.48 | yukonbob | afternoon, cadders |
| 19:53.40 | MinuteElectron | hey |
| 19:53.42 | MinuteElectron | my parents suck |
| 19:54.58 | CIA-4 | BRL-CAD: 03erikgreenwald * 10brlcad/src/ (46 files in 46 dirs): add link dependancy information to shared libraries and reduce redundancy |
| 19:57.17 | ``Erik | now to start the trek to see if that fixes all the issues on debian/ubuntu *sigh* |
| 19:57.26 | MinuteElectron | brlcad: Any ideas where I can start regarding transfering content to the wiki\Drupal? Or should I wait till tomorrow to do that, or should I do it at all? |
| 20:07.42 | yukonbob | Reduction of Redundancy Reducer |
| 20:13.32 | brlcad | MinuteElectron: I'd just wait till tomorrow |
| 20:13.34 | MinuteElectron | ok |
| 20:14.08 | brlcad | the place to start will probably be just pulling from docs already included in the source distribution and on the old/current website |
| 20:14.14 | brlcad | and go from there |
| 20:14.24 | MinuteElectron | ok |
| 20:17.13 | brlcad | tomorrow for you, of course ;) |
| 20:17.23 | MinuteElectron | heh |
| 20:34.01 | CIA-4 | BRL-CAD: 03erikgreenwald * 10brlcad/src/libfft/ (6 files): eliminate complex.h |
| 20:42.39 | CIA-4 | BRL-CAD: 03erikgreenwald * 10brlcad/src/sig/ (7 files): eliminate complex.h |
| 21:05.12 | CIA-4 | BRL-CAD: 03erikgreenwald * 10brlcad/ (7 files in 3 dirs): migrated the contents of src/librt/plane.r to include/bn.h |
| 21:05.40 | MinuteElectron | brlcad: What license is the documentation in CVS under? |
| 21:06.20 | MinuteElectron | Can I just copy and paste it, or do I need to give attribution? |
| 21:07.31 | CIA-4 | BRL-CAD: 03erikgreenwald * 10brlcad/TODO: complex.h's have been eliminated and plane.h has been assimilated into bn.h |
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