| 00:00.24 | brlcad | not directly, only tcl "directly" -- but you can still produce mged transcripts in anything |
| 00:00.53 | qazwsx | how easy is it to embed an interactive langauge into brl-cad, say like lua |
| 00:01.04 | brlcad | to use that script, ./sgi.sh | mged -c sgi.g |
| 00:01.13 | qazwsx | i.e. I want to embed a language in brlcad, so I can control brlcad through this langauge? or is this what the tcl interface provides already? |
| 00:01.17 | ``Erik | there're a lot of C functions to cope with |
| 00:01.25 | ``Erik | and a lot of the core math stuff is cpp macro |
| 00:01.29 | ``Erik | so, uh, not trivial :( |
| 00:01.31 | brlcad | qazwsx: that's pretty much what the tcl interface provides |
| 00:03.19 | brlcad | you could hook in lua into the C-side of mged without too much trouble, but you would be making a crapload of hooks to expose *all* the possible commands in lua .. to do just a small subset wouldn't be too much trouble though |
| 00:03.32 | qazwsx | gotcha |
| 00:03.49 | qazwsx | what's the quickest way to pick up tcl? I'm familiar with asm, c, ruby, python, scheme, ... looking for like the K&R / SICP equiv of tcl |
| 00:03.50 | brlcad | qazwsx: there's also some more scripting examples (both tcl and shell) in the regress/ dir |
| 00:05.21 | brlcad | tcl is pretty straight-forward, it's a relatively simple command language (intentionally simple) where pretty much *everything* is a command (even comments), and it's brace-happy to induce line continuation |
| 00:05.31 | yukonbob | wiki.tcl.tk, "Practical Programming in Tcl and Tk" |
| 00:05.52 | qazwsx | that book is $60.00 so I guess I'll use the wiki :-) |
| 00:06.05 | brlcad | yeah, that's a decent book, there's also http://wiki.tcl.tk/1304 |
| 00:06.18 | yukonbob | book is a good one if you intend to use tcl at all, though... |
| 00:06.29 | brlcad | http://www.beedub.com/book/ |
| 00:07.10 | brlcad | oreilly has a pocket reference too that is good |
| 00:07.16 | yukonbob | *where "use" == using semi-seriously. |
| 00:07.28 | brlcad | but then if you have the manpages installed, you have the book |
| 00:07.42 | yukonbob | otherwise, it's easy to get into, with a few tcl-isms -- so one could just hack at it and see results.... |
| 00:07.52 | qazwsx | lol, apt-get is much faster than amazon's shipping |
| 00:13.03 | qazwsx | wow, brlcad took 20+ mins to compile |
| 00:14.31 | brlcad | now I'm annoyed if it takes more than 5 minutes :) |
| 00:15.38 | qazwsx | hmm, googling got me 0 results on this: ./tclsh: error while loading shared libraries: libOIS-1.0.0.so: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory |
| 00:15.51 | qazwsx | nor does apt-cache search OIS |grep ois show anything interesting; any one now what's wrong? |
| 00:15.54 | qazwsx | (this is from make install) |
| 00:16.33 | qazwsx | oh wait, I think I got it |
| 00:17.20 | brlcad | sounds like you've got a broken tcl installed that it's trying to run? |
| 00:18.00 | qazwsx | no, OIS is some crap left over from OGRE that I hard coded into ~/.bashrc that I have no since removed |
| 00:18.16 | brlcad | ah |
| 00:18.22 | qazwsx | dinner; later; thanks for everyone's help :-) |
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| 01:04.09 | qazwsx | so I just installed brlcad ... which one of the 477 apps in /usr/brlcad/bin should I run to get started? :-) |
| 01:04.50 | louipc | mged is fun |
| 01:05.49 | poolio_ | beset! although it's not installed. |
| 01:06.00 | qazwsx | louipc: cool; thanks |
| 01:06.03 | qazwsx | poolio_: what is beset! ? |
| 01:06.50 | poolio_ | broken :) |
| 01:08.23 | louipc | hehe |
| 01:20.35 | qazwsx | is there an email list for brlcad too, or is it just this irc channel? |
| 01:20.50 | louipc | yeah there are some mailing lists |
| 01:21.14 | louipc | http://sourceforge.net/mail/?group_id=105292 |
| 01:24.59 | qazwsx | hmm, archives not nearly as filled as I thought it'd be |
| 01:25.10 | louipc | yeah it's pretty low traffic |
| 01:32.19 | starseeker | OK, I think I'm beginning to see a little. Being able to write docbook is simply a question of being aware of and using the appropriate environments for any given section of text |
| 01:32.32 | starseeker | the main difference with html is there are a LOT of pre-defined environments |
| 01:33.07 | starseeker | http://personal.riverusers.com/~thegrendel/abs-guide-5.0.tar.bz2 seems to be an example |
| 01:33.24 | starseeker | or more specifically, abs-book.sgml within that archive |
| 01:34.39 | starseeker | That is a VERY complete de-coupling between content and presentation. |
| 01:35.48 | starseeker | And consequently, there is a lot of trust in the tool chain to make the correct typesetting decisions. |
| 01:36.45 | starseeker | brlcad: I take it most documentation for BRL-CAD isn't going to need any sort of sophisticated equation typesetting? |
| 01:38.47 | starseeker | I see now why you want to use this - it's probably the single best way I've seen to ensure complete uniformity of appearance. |
| 01:39.03 | starseeker | (given identical tool chains that is) |
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| 01:59.38 | ``Erik | det |
| 01:59.39 | brlcad | starseeker: yeah, no typesetting |
| 01:59.46 | brlcad | for equations |
| 01:59.51 | brlcad | at least not anytime soon |
| 02:03.03 | qazwsx | okay, brlcad is awesome; mged is awesome too [eom] :-) |
| 02:03.16 | starseeker | OK. I'll go over the environments defined by docbook and make a stab at Volume II |
| 02:03.28 | qazwsx | the whole command interface, and no-save, everything is immmediate interaction is awesome |
| 02:03.34 | Maloeran | I think it's the first time that I see such a great first impression for mged |
| 02:03.45 | louipc | hahah D: |
| 02:03.54 | qazwsx | on top of that, the fact that mged has a vi emulation mode clearly states that the people behind it know what they're doing |
| 02:05.22 | Maloeran | So qazwsx, you are a programmer right? :) I don't think a typical engineer ( or worse, an artist ) could be able to appreciate mged so quickly |
| 02:06.02 | qazwsx | yeah, I'm a programmer :-) |
| 02:06.12 | qazwsx | working through the mged tutorial right now |
| 02:06.22 | qazwsx | It's amazingly well designed for something started 20 years ago? |
| 02:06.34 | qazwsx | for the longest time, I didn't touch the project since I was like it was started 20 years ago, it must be a pos |
| 02:06.39 | louipc | 27-28? |
| 02:06.51 | brlcad | depends when you start counting |
| 02:07.34 | brlcad | musing and ideas started spinning around '79, first geometry editing was '83, first "public" release was '84 |
| 02:07.52 | Maloeran | Well qazwsx, the fact that it begun 27 years ago shouldn't imply that it has remained inactive for the following 25 years |
| 02:08.12 | louipc | I think I played with brlcad maybe 3 yrs ago. I couldn't use the back-space key in mged I think haha |
| 02:08.14 | brlcad | pretty constant development rate |
| 02:08.29 | brlcad | louipc: on windows? |
| 02:08.33 | qazwsx | is this mged prompt that I'm typing into running tcl? |
| 02:08.40 | brlcad | qazwsx: yes |
| 02:08.42 | qazwsx | (i.e. all the "make, in, draw, ls, erase" commands) |
| 02:09.38 | brlcad | there's a whole slew of commands added to the tcl environment ("everything in tcl is a command") that relate to geometry editing and other actions |
| 02:09.53 | brlcad | the mged quick reference on the main page categorizes most of the more important ones |
| 02:10.27 | louipc | brlcad: I think it was in linux |
| 02:10.45 | louipc | oh no it was the delete key :D |
| 02:10.53 | louipc | http://ibot.rikers.org/%23brlcad/20050706.html.gz |
| 02:12.07 | brlcad | qazwsx: if you get to the point of writing tcl scripts in mged, you'll have to be aware of the 'set glob_compat_mode' setting, if it's on (which it is by default), then the command interpreter performs globbing on geometry object names and you have to escape the globbing characters that mean something different to tcl |
| 02:13.26 | brlcad | e.g. by default you can do "ls *.r" and it'd display a listing of all objects named with a .r suffix -- this is obviously not tcl behavior; similarly with more complex globbing like obj_[0-9]*.s etc .. yet [] mean something different to tcl |
| 02:13.53 | brlcad | so if you're going to write a tcl script, you probably want to turn glob compat mode off so you can do things like: set foo [tops] |
| 02:14.33 | brlcad | louipc: ah, delete, yeah - i'd believe that. I think I fixed that shortly after you reported it |
| 02:35.32 | qazwsx | so lesson 4 covers ray tracing ... this is me being picky; is there a way to launch these via commands? (rather than file -> ray trace -> raytrace ?) |
| 03:04.39 | qazwsx | how do I do the equiv of edit -> setH from the commandline in mged? |
| 03:04.42 | qazwsx | I'm looking at set |
| 03:04.47 | qazwsx | err, "sed" nad "p", but none of them appear to work |
| 03:14.02 | brlcad | "yes, 'rt -F/dev/Xl'" whenever he gets back |
| 03:47.34 | *** join/#brlcad qazwsx (n=qazwsx@unaffiliated/adgj) | |
| 03:54.20 | CIA-4 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * 10brlcad/src/libtclcad/Makefile.am: search the blt dir for headers, needed for archer paths |
| 03:54.52 | CIA-4 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * 10brlcad/src/libtclcad/tclcadAutoPath.c: search the archer paths for blt and the archer tclscripts |
| 03:56.03 | brlcad | qazwsx: yes, run 'rt -F/dev/Xl' (man rt or brlman rt (set your MANPATH) for lots of other ray-trace options) |
| 04:02.50 | brlcad | to do the equiv of edit->Set H you can either run "press "Set H", or turn on the Misc->Faceplate GUI, or run 'ted' to kick off a text editor (be sure EDITOR env var is set) on the params |
| 04:03.40 | brlcad | if you've just run 'in' or 'make' commands, you can 'kill objectname' then up arrow and simply recreate |
| 04:04.26 | brlcad | the 'p' command lets you set the various values for the various edit options |
| 04:22.48 | qazwsx | wtf, I can simulate clicking on menus? |
| 04:23.07 | qazwsx | and "rt" is just calling the "rt" program on my shell? |
| 04:23.27 | louipc | cli rules |
| 04:26.01 | brlcad | yep, rt, rtedge, rtarea, ... etc there are various tracers for different needs |
| 04:27.06 | brlcad | you can ray-trace into the 3D graphics window using the cli, but it's a little more involved as that integrated framebuffer can be/is turned on/off on demand |
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| 08:38.24 | Z80-Boy | brlcad: with the newly installed brlcad 7.10.3 even the problem with "rt" not drawing anything has disappeared! |
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| 12:44.06 | ``Erik | *yawn* |
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| 14:52.36 | ``Erik | �sweet! |
| 14:52.44 | ``Erik | src/mged/animedit.c:3059: Internal compiler error in `gen_tagged_type_instantiation_die', at dwarf2out.c:9308 |
| 14:53.42 | *** join/#brlcad ALVAN (n=jhkjhkj@89.34.187.225) | |
| 14:53.48 | ALVAN | hi all |
| 14:54.09 | ALVAN | someone knows a good application like autocad but for linux ? |
| 14:55.24 | Z80-Boy | qcad |
| 14:56.21 | ALVAN | Z80-Boy, does it supports now 3D ? |
| 14:56.33 | ALVAN | as i heard is only works with 2D |
| 14:56.54 | Z80-Boy | no |
| 14:56.57 | Z80-Boy | only 2d |
| 14:57.48 | ALVAN | do you know another :)? |
| 14:57.52 | ALVAN | that is 3D ? |
| 15:00.11 | ``Erik | what are you trying to do with it? |
| 15:00.22 | ``Erik | autocad is a drafting tool, so 2d is kinda, y'know.. .the point... |
| 15:00.46 | ``Erik | http://ftp.brlcad.org/Industry_Diagram.png <-- shows the breadth of what people can mean when they say "cad" |
| 15:02.03 | ALVAN | i want to make graphs of houses, more like for mantions |
| 15:02.35 | ``Erik | 'graphs'? I don't get what exactly you mean |
| 15:02.36 | ALVAN | are not for normally houses ..are for high standard houses |
| 15:03.23 | ``Erik | like rendered pictures? |
| 15:04.18 | ALVAN | i better show you one |
| 15:04.22 | ALVAN | a sample |
| 15:04.37 | ``Erik | a picture is worth a thousand and twenty four words |
| 15:07.26 | ALVAN | Erik http://www.proiectare.net/2006/03/27/vila-tip-a/ |
| 15:07.59 | ALVAN | normally i think 2D is good for me too i do only the last 2 pictures |
| 15:08.00 | ``Erik | ah, then autocad would be bad, something like povray or perhaps, say, BRL-CAD would be well suited |
| 15:08.30 | ``Erik | the floor-plan images would be better done with something like qcad |
| 15:08.37 | ALVAN | currently i work with autocad |
| 15:08.40 | ``Erik | or a 2d drawing program like gimp |
| 15:08.49 | Z80-Boy | lol, 2D plans with a gimp |
| 15:09.46 | ALVAN | ok thanks i will try qcad as i receive many projects written in autocad and i can convert fine |
| 15:09.49 | Z80-Boy | ALVAN: I guess you stay with Autocad - no way how to generate 2D in Qcad and 3D in BRL-CAD from the same source |
| 15:10.35 | Z80-Boy | ALVAN: took me 3 days to make a simple 6-edges plate in BRL-CAD for which I had a blueprint in qcad |
| 15:11.20 | ALVAN | hm ok |
| 15:11.35 | Z80-Boy | ALVAN: I had to do it by calculating sinuses and cosinuses manually and typing them into commandline |
| 15:11.50 | Z80-Boy | .oO(Advanced Information Technology) |
| 15:12.00 | ALVAN | Z80-Boy, manually there is bc for that :) you need only a script |
| 15:12.10 | Z80-Boy | ALVAN: I did in bc |
| 15:12.37 | ALVAN | ok i presume there is more then only calculations |
| 15:12.58 | Z80-Boy | ALVAN: you might however be able to make a thin slice through the house, render it with rtedge and then you would get a "floor plan" without the dimensions |
| 15:13.26 | Z80-Boy | ALVAN: in Autocad you can select if you want a 3D or 2D view? |
| 15:13.37 | ALVAN | yes you can |
| 15:13.42 | ALVAN | by default is 3D |
| 15:14.00 | ALVAN | or sometiems depedns of the image |
| 15:14.05 | Z80-Boy | in BRL-CAD, you can't even have dimensions... everything's blind |
| 15:14.27 | Z80-Boy | no way to align one object on another |
| 15:14.32 | ALVAN | i did not say i will try BRL-CAD .. icame here for an alternative |
| 15:14.38 | Z80-Boy | or to figure out a point where two things intersect |
| 15:14.42 | ALVAN | in waht i saw about it is more like for elctronics |
| 15:15.11 | Z80-Boy | electronics? |
| 15:15.45 | ALVAN | how electronics boards are made ..but i think i did not read all about it |
| 15:16.03 | ALVAN | i just was glad that i found a CAD related channel |
| 15:16.41 | ALVAN | i see it knows more then what i said :) |
| 15:19.05 | ALVAN | Z80-Boy, ok thanks |
| 15:19.38 | minute | back# |
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| 17:26.28 | *** join/#brlcad qazwsx (n=qazwsx@unaffiliated/adgj) | |
| 17:28.41 | qazwsx | here's the latest weird hack I'm trying to do with brlcad -- when I use mged, I'd like to be able to send commands / get results back from mged via a unix pipe ... or a unix msg queue ... I'm not sure where to jump in / start hacking; anyone have pointers? |
| 17:29.16 | ``Erik | mged -c blah.g < script |
| 17:30.29 | qazwsx | this is cool, but isn't interactive right? |
| 17:30.33 | qazwsx | perfecably, I want something like |
| 17:30.39 | qazwsx | mged -c blah.g &; then in another window, I go |
| 17:30.50 | qazwsx | mg-run "in blah.s rcc ..... " |
| 17:30.54 | qazwsx | or mg-run "ls" |
| 17:31.03 | qazwsx | and it sends it over to mged; then prints the results back to stdout to me |
| 17:31.28 | ``Erik | well, -c (classic mode) is interactive and uses stdin/stdout instead of the tcl/t window |
| 17:32.17 | ``Erik | like any interactive stdin/stdout type program, you can attach a stream other than stdin to feed it input, like a pipe or file handle... |
| 17:32.28 | ``Erik | for shits and giggles, try it out :) |
| 17:34.38 | qazwsx | oh wow, cool; thanks, I didn't realize -c meant classic mode, which meant stdin/stdout |
| 17:35.13 | ``Erik | :) I tend to use that mode a lot when writing code and testing... gui stuff is a pain |
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| 18:04.19 | Z80-Boy | brlcad: I have one problem with mged. I wanted to save the configuration file so I did File -> Create/Update .mgedrc and it said an error message I don't remember what |
| 18:04.35 | Z80-Boy | Now the setup is completely screwed, multipane is away, axes are away. |
| 18:05.13 | Z80-Boy | When I set it back and do File -> Create/Update .mgedrc I get an error message Error: can't read "mged default(overstrike_font)":... |
| 18:05.24 | Z80-Boy | [OK] [Skip Messages] [Details>>] |
| 18:06.29 | Z80-Boy | mged on startup also prints: "Error reading .mgedrc: can't read "mged_default(zbuffer)": no such element in array while executing "set mged_default(zbuffer) " (file "/home/clock/.mgedrc" line 92)" |
| 18:07.21 | qazwsx | if you mv ~/.mgedrc to ~/.old-mgedrc and rerun mged, will it create a new one for you? |
| 18:07.41 | Z80-Boy | Yes |
| 18:07.45 | Z80-Boy | then I can save multipane |
| 18:07.59 | qazwsx | okay, does this solve your problem? |
| 18:08.20 | Z80-Boy | but during saving the mgedrc I still get an error message Error: can't read "mged_default(overstrike_font)":... |
| 18:08.24 | Z80-Boy | Yes. |
| 18:08.34 | Z80-Boy | But there's still an error message every time I save the .mgedrc |
| 18:09.21 | qazwsx | okay, so if you start wiht a fresh .mgedrc, and save multipane, then when u restart mgedrc, you get an error? |
| 18:10.57 | Z80-Boy | It solves only half of the problem now I see |
| 18:11.22 | Z80-Boy | I can save multipane but when I set up axes in all 4 windows and then do save exit start mged the axes are not there |
| 18:13.46 | Z80-Boy | So the problem is now, how do I make the axes stay over a mged restart? |
| 18:14.52 | Z80-Boy | Delete mged, setup everything at once, save, and pray that I won't need to change anything anymore in the future? |
| 18:15.02 | Z80-Boy | mged -> .mgedrc |
| 18:16.12 | qazwsx | sorry, don't know; I started using brlcad about 24 hrs ago :-/ |
| 18:34.36 | Z80-Boy | I tried to wipe .mgedrc, then set up panes and axes at once, then save, quit, restart mged. |
| 18:34.47 | Z80-Boy | Doesn't work - only panes are saved, axes are not present. |
| 18:38.45 | qazwsx | this is a really really really dumb hack |
| 18:38.56 | qazwsx | but according to man mged you can run a command on startup |
| 18:39.04 | qazwsx | maybe u can set it up so that this one command sets up everything u need |
| 18:52.57 | Z80-Boy | lol |
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| 21:45.10 | brlcad | ``Erik: was that internal error from mipspro? |
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| 21:47.15 | Z80-Boy | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1eNjUgaB-g <- vector oscilloscope demo |
| 21:47.53 | Z80-Boy | brlcad: my mged cannot save configuration properly |
| 21:49.01 | *** join/#brlcad qazwsx (n=qazwsx@unaffiliated/adgj) | |
| 21:49.19 | brlcad | Z80-Boy: hm, that might be something new since you're working on head |
| 21:49.35 | brlcad | i'll have to give that a try myself -- zbuffer was recently "disabled by default" |
| 21:50.07 | brlcad | that disabling might have introduced some other problem |
| 22:06.27 | ``Erik | brlcad: gcc, with -O3 on, um, animedit.c or something in mged |
| 22:42.27 | starseeker | brlcad: Did you want to use the "book" style for the BRL-CAD manuals? |
| 23:12.08 | ``Erik | in theory, any style should be trivial to slap on once the doc is all marked up... no? |
| 23:25.04 | starseeker | in theory, yes |
| 23:25.36 | starseeker | docbook isn't like anything else I've run into thus far, not even TeX - EVERYTHING gets it's own "label" identifying what it is. |
| 23:25.58 | starseeker | so you have to know what labels are available |
| 23:26.10 | starseeker | fortunately, the docbook site is good for that once you get started |
| 23:26.21 | starseeker | I've begun working on volume two now |
| 23:31.00 | louipc | ?? you'e |
| 23:31.08 | louipc | you're doing it manually? |
| 23:34.11 | starseeker | yep |
| 23:34.18 | starseeker | that's the only way |
| 23:34.53 | starseeker | Neither the pdf nor the word document have the correct starting information to provide a converter with the "correct" info to make a good docbook document |
| 23:35.00 | louipc | ouch |
| 23:35.04 | starseeker | you'll see when I can post an example |
| 23:35.37 | starseeker | In some sense, docbook create's a "meta" document - no formatting, but LOTS of info about what each component IS |
| 23:35.51 | starseeker | for example, an address is composed of components, each of which has its own tag |
| 23:36.55 | louipc | so it all comes down to manual marking up dang |
| 23:47.29 | ``Erik | hum |
| 23:47.50 | ``Erik | tex likes to label most things, too... the big difference from the jade style docbook I've dorked with (fbsd docs) |
| 23:47.57 | ``Erik | is the <p> tag for paragraphs |
| 23:48.34 | ``Erik | and tex tends to have more header info, since both the style and content exist in the same file tree |
| 23:48.59 | ``Erik | or was it <para> |
| 23:50.56 | ``Erik | <para> heh... http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=docs/35140 |
