IRC log for #brlcad on 20071030

00:00.03 starseeker This might be interesting, but I'm not sure what they mean by "code": http://www.hep.net/ssc/new/codes.html
00:00.20 starseeker Probably software
00:01.51 starseeker Hmm - wonder if Brookhaven ever posted it anywhere...
00:03.07 starseeker Not that there'd be too much point in modeling an non-existent collider in a CAD system anyway - the Tevatron might be fun but so far I can't scare up the blueprints from their website
00:09.47 starseeker Humph. Web page is at BNL, but not updated since 1995 apparently.
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00:37.02 IriX64 navigate by stars man :)
00:38.41 starseeker That would probably work better ;-)
00:38.53 IriX64 for certain :)
00:39.38 IriX64 might have to pay for it
00:39.54 starseeker Up front, possibly.
00:41.20 IriX64 probable
00:42.37 starseeker Plus, in some ways the Apollo achievements are to our civilization what the Pyramids were to ancient Egypt - human achievement on a grand scale
00:43.31 starseeker The details of how that was done (technically speaking) seem worth preserving
00:44.08 IriX64 there are many places to find such info, try nasa jet propulsion labs
00:44.35 starseeker Oh, I know it can be found - this guy has some of it: http://www.up-ship.com/drawndoc/drawndocspacesaturn.htm
00:44.52 IriX64 ok
00:45.03 starseeker Unfortunately it sounds like the only practical way to do it is to wade into the physical archives themselves and start scanning
00:45.17 starseeker and even then, I don't know how much of it would be approved for public release.
00:45.22 IriX64 what are you trying to acomplish
00:45.46 starseeker Well, the idea would be to fully document the technical details of the Apollo system
00:46.13 starseeker In other words, to collect on a website all the information future generations would need in order to build their own ;-)
00:46.48 IriX64 one would hope they would be capable of building something better :)
00:47.44 starseeker Oh, sure. But it's sort of like how we like figuring out how they built the pyramids - considering we can't figure that out real well and it's just a bunch of rocks piled real high, I'd think putting a man on the moon would be a little bit more difficult in retrospect ;-)
00:49.09 starseeker It's probably just my own odd curiosities
00:49.13 IriX64 depends on whose point of view you take, to those building the pyramids it probably was quite difficult :)
00:49.44 starseeker Agreed :-). But I'd rather try that from scratch with no technological base than try putting someone on the moon.
00:50.46 IriX64 true, all knowledge is usefull, so you want to document it true?
00:51.17 starseeker Right :-). I also have the same notions about computers - how do you go from a bunch of inert metal to a modern computer?
00:51.48 IriX64 quite the projects, good luck :)
00:51.52 starseeker hehe
00:52.01 starseeker It's more just notions I have than anything
00:52.14 IriX64 notions are good
00:52.17 starseeker The scale is extremely large, and I doubt I will ever have the time to do it
00:52.36 IriX64 engage helpfull people in it
00:52.38 starseeker Maybe if I'm blessed with good health and prosperity in retirement
00:52.50 IriX64 not that i'm volunteering :)
00:52.54 starseeker That would involve finding people as nutty as I am ;-)
00:53.07 IriX64 true :)
00:54.03 starseeker Slightly more possible is using Forth to bootstrap a Lisp environment completely by hand :-). I may try that someday
00:56.49 starseeker and bemusedly notes he'd better get to work on household chores...
00:56.59 IriX64 :)
01:11.44 IriX64 7.10.4 tells me i have no X and no GL, 7.8.4 says i have both !?!?!?
01:13.11 louipc imagine spending your decades researching so you can build a robot that will do all your chores for you so you can spend time doing other things only to realise you've wasted all your years essentially doing chores (via the robot)
01:27.05 louipc I'd like to know how the heck we were able to make more precise and accurate machinery from less precise/accurate machinery
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03:21.05 IriX64 why won't encarta95 install on vista64 ;)
03:26.52 IriX64 I can safely say "I can't support you anymore" to all those people who have my old 8 and 16 bit software:
03:28.25 IriX64 )
03:33.45 IriX64 blah... watcom 10.6a installed, now i have to convert all that 8 and 16 bit schtuff to 32 bit :(
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07:13.34 brlcad minute-ssh: I saw the bus error, what were you doing that caused it? is it reproducible and accessible from the web server or was it something you were running on the command line?
07:15.42 brlcad starseeker: the intent wouldn't be to replace implicit evaluation with nurbs evals (though you could) -- there are plenty of comparisons that we can/would do to make sure that it's working, but it's already pretty well understood that it'd be slower (nurbs evaluation is naturally about an order slower)
07:19.55 brlcad those BNL codes don't seem particularly interesting to me other than noting the four written by Reshetov probably long before he got into ray tracing
08:00.38 brlcad ahh, intaval
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09:33.13 CIA-27 BRL-CAD: 03d_rossberg * 10brlcad/ (14 files in 3 dirs): initial checkin of TNO's/IABG's INTAVAL to BRL-CAD converter
09:39.42 brlcad hello d_rossberg
09:40.07 d_rossberg hi brlcad
09:41.05 brlcad glad to see the converter in, looks good at a glance
09:41.53 brlcad was that developed by multiple people?
09:41.59 d_rossberg i hope so, i could not test the Linux build (autogen is missing some Makefile.in)
09:42.52 brlcad autogen.sh is probably complaining because intaval wasn't added to configure.ac ;)
09:43.04 d_rossberg yes, the base was developed by TNO, and i aded some new primitives (it should be complete now)
09:43.10 brlcad ah, you did add it
09:43.13 brlcad hm
09:43.27 brlcad anyone specific at tno?
09:43.40 brlcad or several folks?
09:43.45 d_rossberg autogen was complaining about misc/debian
09:43.45 brlcad just curious
09:44.24 brlcad ah, have you done a update -dP in a while?
09:44.50 brlcad have to run that from time to time to pick up new dirs that are added
09:45.05 d_rossberg because of TNO: i'm not shure, but i think Wim has something to do with it
09:45.29 brlcad would have expected wim :)
09:45.39 brlcad haven't interacted with them in a while
09:46.16 d_rossberg update dP: on Windows always but not on Linux :-{
09:47.00 d_rossberg TNO is very interested in interacting with the BRL-CAD people
09:52.32 CIA-27 BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * 10brlcad/configure.ac: intaval/Makefile
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10:05.04 brlcad seems to be going ok so far, have to fix an include path issue (our problem in configure.ac)
10:06.40 CIA-27 BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * 10brlcad/configure.ac: search the opennurbs dir for header files, it's required when compiling c++ sources that use rtgeom.h (which uses brep.h, which requires opennurbs.h)
10:07.36 d_rossberg with update -dP automake runs much better ...
10:13.09 brlcad you'll probably want that last commit too, include path addition
10:13.33 CIA-27 BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * 10brlcad/src/other/intaval/Makefile.am: ah, blasted automake (or my assumptions of it). just include the opennurbs cppflags here since c++ files are still in the minority.
10:13.36 brlcad just built fine for me here and runs (mac os x)
10:14.49 brlcad what do "dra" and "tgf" stand for?
10:16.43 CIA-27 BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * 10brlcad/configure.ac: don't make up var names, just comment it out for now. as more C++ is integrated, it can be made default
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10:21.00 CIA-27 BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * 10brlcad/NEWS: new tgf-g INTAVAL importer
10:22.14 brlcad d_rossberg: if you have names of specific people to credit in the news file, please let me know -- i.e. others besides you and Wim
10:22.36 brlcad have fun with the canteening .. a bit early here for that :)
10:25.56 CIA-27 BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * 10brlcad/NEWS: add PML to TNO's name. would preferably reference the developers directly but don't know yet if there were others coding besides Wim B. and Daniel R. working on it
10:26.51 brlcad d_rossberg: and if you missed the question.. do you know what do "dra" and "tgf" stand for?
11:24.51 d_rossberg DRA: Defence Research Agency (established by UK MoD)
11:26.02 d_rossberg TGF: Target Geometry File (it is how they are calling it)
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14:04.11 ``Erik um, is that related to tank-kill?
14:06.40 CIA-27 BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * 10brlcad/src/other/intaval/readme.txt: annotate what DRA and TGF stand for
14:07.24 brlcad d_rossberg: thx
14:08.29 brlcad undoubtedly "related" .. could even be the same format which would mean we now have three converters for the same format that all do something radically different ..
14:08.56 brlcad from the look of what daniel added though, the format is either considerably different or it's a much better importer
14:09.38 brlcad from what I have gathered, intaval is the uk's version of covart, developed by lockheed martin
14:09.48 ``Erik if that's the case, someone should do some test runs and see if the old ones can be links to the new one... uh, I don't volunteer :D
14:09.58 brlcad whereas tankill is the uk's version of muves
14:10.22 d_rossberg brlcad: same to you
14:10.27 ``Erik if I weren't still hurting from the weekend, I'd be seriously breaking the repo right now, but I don't wanna deal with being on the hook to fix it :)
14:10.28 brlcad former version at least
14:10.41 Z80-Boy ``Erik: what did you do on the weekend?
14:10.56 ``Erik imbibed. significantly.
14:11.29 ``Erik :D
14:11.55 ``Erik and got to be the "tool" in an argument with an old friend, and too many damn video games
14:13.25 ``Erik and negotiated a deal to go back to online dj'ing, I think
14:14.14 ``Erik this c++ fqa is hilarious, yet so true
14:14.30 ``Erik http://yosefk.com/c++fqa/
15:05.36 d_rossberg brlcad: what do you recommend, if building without opennurbs should cpp sources not include the opennurbs headers or should OPENNURBS_CPPFLAGS always be set
15:17.15 brlcad d_rossberg: did you see my commit earlier today?
15:17.31 brlcad that's what they were for
15:19.13 brlcad it should probably always be set since at least at the moment it's required due to brep.h, but there's also presently only three instances of C++ application code in the entire repository .. so it was just as easy to add the OPENNURBS_CPPFLAGS to the place where it was needed (to intaval's Makefile..am)
15:20.34 d_rossberg brlcad: i saw your comment, but the converter won't compile
15:20.35 brlcad once nurbs/brep support is "complete", opennurbs will be required so I'd more soon always add it than conditionally on opennurbs being built
15:20.57 brlcad d_rossberg: you sure about that? .. are you up to date?
15:21.12 brlcad 06:13 < CIA-27> BRL-CAD: brlcad * brlcad/src/other/intaval/Makefile.am: ah, blasted automake (or my assumptions of it). just include the opennurbs cppflags here since c++ files are still in the minority.
15:21.48 brlcad I built and ran successfully on mac os x already after that fix
15:22.37 d_rossberg i'm afraid OPENNURBS_CPPFLAGS won't help if they are empty
15:22.46 brlcad ooooh
15:22.49 brlcad you turn it off
15:23.11 brlcad yeah, that's nfg then :)
15:23.22 d_rossberg on the other side, there is a define WITH_OPENNURBS which could be used in brep.h
15:23.24 brlcad OPENNURBS_CPPFLAGS should always be set
15:23.58 brlcad though if someone wanted a system opennurbs, the flags would be different
15:24.50 brlcad WITH_OPENNURBS is an automake conditional, not a define .. you'd have to add a define for it
15:26.37 brlcad and that's the one that will eventually go away when the implementation is complete so that nurbs/brep support is consistently available in the core
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15:28.30 CIA-27 BRL-CAD: 03d_rossberg * 10brlcad/configure.ac: always set the path to the openNURBS headers (C++)
15:30.39 brlcad yeah, that'll work for the time being, until there's a --with flag for pointing to a system-installed opennurbs or until we make too many mods that it has to build custom
15:37.24 CIA-27 BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * 10brlcad/BUGS: apparently not yet annotated, so make a note of the stupid unable to find brl-cad message when rt encounters a shader it doesn't recognize. the dynamic shader loading code has some bad juju in it.
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19:11.33 ewilhelm hi all
19:12.00 ewilhelm I'm getting errors trying to build cvs from source on Debian Etch (gcc 4.1 and/or 3.4)
19:12.20 ewilhelm libtool: link: cannot find the library `../../../src/libwdb/libwdb.la
19:14.37 ewilhelm is this an issue with CVS today or something on my end?
19:17.24 ewilhelm it appears to be something of a failed make dependency detection
19:22.50 ewilhelm hmm, manually stepping through the failing directories leads me to a libtcl-8.5 error
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19:28.24 ewilhelm ugh, I just did cd tcl and tk and ran make install and then popd'd back through the stack of failing dirs and `make` was fine
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19:50.03 illethal Hello..
19:53.46 ewilhelm hi
19:54.15 illethal I havn't used BRL-CAD yet. I have a few questions maybe someone can answer?
19:55.08 ewilhelm maybe -- at the moment I'm trying to figure out why cvs won't build from gcc-4.1
19:55.20 ewilhelm so, I might not be the best source of info :-D
19:55.27 illethal Haha.
19:55.31 illethal I get ya, Linux.
19:56.02 ewilhelm seems to be mostly a make problem
19:56.21 illethal What distro are you on?
19:56.37 ewilhelm Debian Etch
19:56.48 illethal Ah k.
19:57.08 ewilhelm seems to be working, but a ridiculous amount of manual cd && make stuff
19:58.03 illethal That's what makes Linux fun.
19:58.19 ewilhelm nah, aptitude is what makes it fun
19:58.23 illethal Lmao
19:58.34 illethal Yeah, synaptic is by far my favorite package manager I've used.
19:58.57 illethal Does BRL-CAD have a GUI?
19:59.04 ewilhelm yep
19:59.08 illethal Or do you have to like make all the geo with math
19:59.13 illethal K awesome.
19:59.17 ewilhelm that too though
19:59.28 illethal Ahhh, I've never done that before.
19:59.40 illethal I've been playing around with 3D on my own for a few years, but not CAD.
19:59.45 ewilhelm last I played with it, the command-line was much better at constructing geometry than the mouse
20:00.10 ewilhelm its a "shell" (ala autocad's command-line) within the mged gui app
20:00.17 illethal I probably won't be able to figure out how to use it, but it seems badass.
20:00.32 ewilhelm so, it is interactive -- rather than a sort of batch CLI app
20:00.46 illethal I see.
20:00.49 ewilhelm you might want to try it -- I haven't updated for a few years
20:00.58 illethal So you can also edit the object from the GUI, but you have to make it from the CLI?
20:01.25 ewilhelm you can use the mouse, it just might be limited in expressiveness in some areas
20:01.36 illethal Ah.
20:03.21 illethal Will it work on Vista 64bits you think?
20:03.36 illethal Not very many programs do lol
20:03.51 ewilhelm it has a Tk gui, so maybe
20:04.07 ewilhelm iirc, there are binaries on the sourceforge page
20:04.32 illethal Hmm, no installer?
20:04.46 illethal I think I'm too noob to use BRL-CAD, =|
20:09.52 *** part/#brlcad illethal (n=oden@c-69-137-199-63.hsd1.fl.comcast.net)
20:13.50 brlcad howdy ewilhelm
20:14.53 brlcad did you do a parallel -j build? I've ran into issues with that several times in the past where a failure gets through and the build tries to continue, not stopping when it should
20:15.52 brlcad other automake/libtool bugs on nfs filesystems too
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20:24.00 ewilhelm brlcad: yep -j 16
20:24.54 dtidrow_work 16? yikes
20:25.02 ewilhelm distcc :-D
20:25.06 ewilhelm is there a pastebot?
20:25.08 dtidrow_work ah
20:25.36 dtidrow_work so you basically have a 'compile farm'?
20:26.11 ewilhelm brlcad: here's roughly what I ended-up doing
20:26.13 ewilhelm <PROTECTED>
20:27.15 ewilhelm the tcl (and maybe tk) had to be installed or I would get libtcl8.5.so
20:27.23 ewilhelm ... errors
20:28.14 ewilhelm then the pushd was all just a matter of stepping through the src/libbu src/libbn src/librt src/libwdb
20:28.29 ewilhelm plus a stop-off at libsysv on the way back
20:30.05 ewilhelm then I had to make install in src/other before src/ would work
20:30.18 ewilhelm and make install src before $top would make
20:30.46 ewilhelm it seems like it that last bit (and tcl) was more an LDFLAGS issue
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20:35.31 ewilhelm brlcad: anyhow, it all got built and mged works
20:35.51 ewilhelm but I can't "zoom all" on my converted stl -- shouldn't `reset` do that?
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20:50.40 ewilhelm ah -- 'draw all'
21:01.07 brlcad ~bzpaste
21:01.10 brlcad ~bzpastebin
21:01.11 ibot i guess bzpastebin is http://pastebin.bzflag.bz a place to put large chunks of text to not flood a channel
21:01.26 brlcad just fyi future ref
21:01.32 brlcad or this
21:01.34 brlcad ~pastebin
21:01.34 ibot rumour has it, pastebin is a place to paste your stuff without flooding the channel - try http://pastebin.ca, or http://channels.debian.net/paste, or http://rafb.net/paste/, or http://pastebin.com is usually painfully too slow and unresponsive to use, use one of the other pastebin sites, or dpaste.com is a very nice pastebin as well
21:01.38 brlcad but no bot
21:02.02 ewilhelm is there a shaded view mode?
21:02.09 brlcad almost guaranteed, the parallel build is what caused the need for multiple passes to get past the build error
21:02.23 ewilhelm i.e. without needing to raytrace
21:02.35 brlcad there is
21:02.38 brlcad it sucks
21:02.51 brlcad that's some of the stuff we're working on, it gets to core representation issues
21:03.02 brlcad part of the brep/nurbs work, multiple representations
21:03.08 ewilhelm not opengl ?
21:03.16 brlcad so we can go back and forth between explicit and implicit reps
21:04.10 brlcad opengl is an explicit geometric representation, brl-cad historically has only dealt with implicit mathematical representations -- provides greater accuracy, compactness, efficiency, few other benefits
21:04.22 brlcad but going from implicit to explicit is very non-trivial
21:04.52 brlcad so just getting "polygons" out of an implicit rep reliably and quickly is actually a pretty tricky feat
21:05.13 ewilhelm yep
21:05.14 brlcad and opengl *only* deals with explicit polygonal representation formats
21:05.22 brlcad er, s/polygonal//
21:05.32 brlcad it does deal with a few explicit spline surface formats
21:05.37 brlcad but no implicit formats
21:06.12 ewilhelm iirc, autocad maintains a dual list of objects<->polygons in the view pipeline
21:07.21 brlcad ewilhelm: iirc, going back to some talks over a year ago, you might be interested to know that I finally did get all of the STEP APs scanned and OCR'd :-)
21:07.46 ewilhelm neat -- wasn't a year ago at this point though :-D
21:07.47 brlcad autocad deals internally with explicit formats, spline surfaces
21:07.58 brlcad it's dual-rep is explicit spline to explicit poly
21:08.04 brlcad which is pretty trivial ;)
21:08.23 ewilhelm isn't the CSG in autocad "implicit mathematical"?
21:08.44 brlcad the operations are performed on explicits
21:08.51 brlcad brb
21:18.35 brlcad I'm in and out, but to your question -- yes CSG operations are implicit (by their very nature), but they're applying implicit operators to an explicit geometry representation
21:18.59 brlcad that's rather different from applying implicit operators to implicit geometry -- there is no evaluated form
21:19.59 ewilhelm ah, ok
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22:32.04 minute-ssh brlcad: It was something I was running from the command line. And it is fully reproducable.
22:32.29 minute-ssh Right now I am having internet trouble, hence why I am using SSH IRC as opposed to home IRC. So I might not respond.
22:32.36 brlcad ok
22:32.56 minute-ssh brlcad: Do you need any more info?
22:33.06 brlcad yeah, what do you want me to do about it? :)
22:33.16 brlcad sounds like a php bug :)
22:33.19 minute-ssh Oh, ok.
22:33.36 brlcad i can see if there's an update in ports
22:33.49 brlcad i mean php crashing is definitely a php bug
22:33.52 minute-ssh Juding from the response of ##php they suggested it was a bug in your executable. Non-essential, I will file a PHP bu report.
22:33.53 brlcad do you know what causes it?
22:34.14 brlcad that sounds like their way saying "that php binary is buggy"
22:34.20 brlcad which is a bug in php
22:34.29 brlcad just that it might be fixed in a newer version
22:34.48 minute-ssh I haven't tracked down the exact cause, but I have tracked it down to my custom MySQL class.
22:35.37 brlcad you could download/compile php and see if their latest sources still have the problem
22:36.35 brlcad we're on 5.2.1 at the moment, latest in ports seems to be 5.2.3
22:37.22 brlcad I do really hate changing php unless there's a pressing need (you needing it would be a good enough reason, though)
22:38.03 brlcad because it impacts the web install with apache and mod_php .. if the compilation flags aren't right, things can get wonky
22:45.35 minute-ssh ok
22:45.35 minute-ssh dw
22:46.17 minute-ssh It is non-essential.
22:52.39 minute-ssh I was doing it yesterday, but got sidetracked.
22:53.06 minute-ssh It is late here now and I have to be getting on with something, so I will check it out more tomorrow.

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