IRC log for #brlcad on 20071220

00:00.15 starseeker OK, that was really weird, but it worked. Does BRL-CAD need the zlib copy included with it?
00:00.46 ``Erik src/other/libz ?
00:01.18 starseeker opennurbs/zlib
00:01.59 brlcad no, but to remove it requires a few mods
00:02.02 starseeker sorry - the opennurbs tarball has a copy of zlib
00:02.05 starseeker ah :-)
00:02.25 brlcad we've modified them in our src tree, but we're also one release behind them now
00:02.45 starseeker ah
00:02.50 brlcad i had to make a slew of cross-platform compilation fixes too, but maybe they've fixed those
00:03.27 brlcad fortunately, all of our big mods have been left out of their source tree
00:03.51 brlcad "we" (jason) implemented a lot of the functions that they took out of opennurbs
00:04.05 brlcad as they intentionally don't want it used the way we're using it
00:04.22 starseeker That's annoying
00:04.29 brlcad (i.e. as part of a nurbs evaluation kernel)
00:04.52 brlcad as they see it as directly competing with one of their commercial products they sell
00:04.58 starseeker So BRL-CAD can use (in theory) an external copy?
00:05.02 starseeker indeed
00:05.03 brlcad in theory
00:05.19 brlcad like I said, haven't tried the latest
00:05.34 brlcad you might want to try upgrading our copy first, just in case there were api changes
00:05.41 brlcad might/should be easier
00:05.57 brlcad then work on making the patch that the ebuild will need from their zip
00:06.13 brlcad how is the ebuild supposed to get the zip?
00:06.21 starseeker got me
00:06.28 starseeker may require fetch restrictions
00:06.31 brlcad iirc, they have this click-through contact form
00:06.49 brlcad you don't have to fill in anything, but you can't get to the download link without going through it iirc
00:07.06 starseeker well, if it's free Gentoo can make a tarball :-)
00:07.12 brlcad and host it?
00:07.24 starseeker maybe. or we could
00:08.08 brlcad I wouldn't without an okay from mcneel, and that's not likely given how we use it
00:08.23 brlcad even if license-wise there's no reason we couldn't
00:08.56 starseeker Hmm
00:09.07 starseeker ok
00:09.26 brlcad but you're welcome to ask :)
00:09.31 starseeker hehe
00:09.54 brlcad yay, one of my stitches just came out
00:10.07 brlcad that's been irritating for days
00:10.09 starseeker I'll let the Gentoo devs ask :-P
00:10.18 brlcad heh, that works
00:10.44 ``Erik soluble stitches?
00:11.55 brlcad yeah
00:17.41 ``Erik cool beans
01:15.28 starseeker brlcad: So are the opennurbs guys actively annoyed with us, or they just didn't provide the functions jason recreated in order to avoid making it TOO easy for the competition?
01:33.31 brlcad starseeker: i'm not sure I'd characterize it as annoyed or not, I don't know -- but I do know that they openly state that using the library as part of any geometric modeling kernel is and was not the reason that the sources are provided and that they specifically will *not* help anyone using it in that regard
01:35.09 brlcad if you read through their news/mailing list for the past couple years (archived on their site iirc), you'll see at least a half dozen questions that come up with people trying to use it as such where they reiterate that it's not supposed to be used for that and they don't provide any help
04:19.40 Axman6 sound like a bunch of wankers. how does doing that help anyone?
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05:08.31 Axman6 .......................
05:08.34 Axman6 oh god
05:08.39 starseeker Thank goodness the stix font beta had already come and gone or I would have started suspecting an early April 1st
05:09.59 starseeker Axman6: Exactly :-)
05:11.19 starseeker As much as I have to grit my teeth to say it - Good for Microsoft; well done
05:13.06 Axman6 only what, two years too late?
05:13.28 starseeker ``Erik: Do you by any chance have autoconf build logic for opennurbs that could be used for a stand alone install? They don't seem to have even a make install command...
05:13.35 starseeker Heh - better late than never
05:13.56 starseeker From what I recall, ACID2 stumped everyone for a while - I think Konqueror was the first to get it right?
05:14.09 Axman6 Safari was the first
05:14.21 starseeker Ah, right
05:14.23 Axman6 which then meant konquorer came next, then opera
05:15.31 Axman6 and now the KDE guys have basically dropped the main khtml stuff, and they're going to use Apple's WebKit for konqueror... because bugs get fixed faster :P
05:17.37 starseeker Hey, as long as it works :-)
05:17.58 starseeker I guess you could call WebKit khtml2.0, based on where it came from...
05:18.54 Axman6 well khtml basically died about a year ago. there's been no work on it for ages
05:19.41 Axman6 Apple have done a fantastic job with webkit, fast, makes things look good, very standards complient
05:20.00 starseeker Hard to argue with that, and if the licensing is OK why not use it?
05:21.01 Axman6 yeah, not sure what it's licence is actually, good chance it's GPL though
05:21.22 starseeker Apple does good work, as a rule
05:21.38 starseeker The problem is (for me at least) they charge accordingly :-)
05:21.55 Axman6 well i could seriously imagine steve standing behind guys witha whip...
05:22.07 Axman6 macs are cheap these days man, and so's OS X
05:22.29 starseeker They aren't bad, but Linux is free and almost all of it is open :-)
05:23.10 starseeker One thing about Mac OSX's graphics systems - they are very definitely NOT open
05:23.41 Axman6 linux is a play thing for me, there's just not enough polish with it, things are still too hard to use, and it lacks the consistancy i get with OS X. i know linux definitely has it's place, but i don't think that's the desktop yet
05:23.41 starseeker Plus, as time goes by I'm coming more and more to appreciate the X method of communication - it is relatively language independent
05:24.10 Axman6 heh, X is one of the main reasons i don't like linux
05:25.06 starseeker X is actually quite an excellent piece of work, but it didn't get the fancy stuff until recently thanks to the XFree86 organizational setup (as I understand it)
05:25.14 Axman6 yeah, that argument usually doesn't go down very well on irc... but you're talking to people who irc, so they're not going to be your average joe ;)
05:25.23 starseeker I remember noticing a lot of abrupt improvements in Cygwin's X support after Xorg took off...
05:26.54 Axman6 i just think the structure of X is stupid. i don't understand using a client server model when you're using a single machine. X forwarding is nice ish, but there are other ways, and that should really be a side thing these days
05:26.59 Axman6 if that makes any sense
05:27.59 starseeker Well, the advantage of client-server is that you don't have to care what programming languages are being used in client or server. Programming a GUI on Mac OSX in anything other than Objective C requires some FFI work at some layer, as I understand it
05:28.48 Axman6 well you can use many different things like QT and gtk if you want
05:28.56 starseeker The X architecture is one of the reasons Lisp can talk to it well - it doesn't require an FFI bridge
05:29.26 starseeker Oh, sure - you can use a lib to paper over the differences if someone has written one (and QT is a good one by all the accounts I have heard)
05:29.43 starseeker But the client/server flexibility still makes many things easier in the end
05:30.12 starseeker Sorta like the trend towards web clients for apps, although I'm not terribly impressed with that personally...
05:30.48 Axman6 still, if you've ever used a mac for a while, you start to feel that the gui is really 'solid' its hard to explain, but with X and the windows managers you use, you can feel that windows are made of little bitmaps and such
05:31.10 starseeker Sure. I'm not claiming OSX isn't more polished - it is
05:31.26 starseeker But to me that's less critical than the core technologies behind it :-)
05:32.12 starseeker Apples technologies are probably pretty good overall (unless you're trying to make an McCLIM backend to the OSX graphics layer...) but they're also completely closed up
05:32.58 starseeker Heh - I've gotta hit the hay here before my head demolishes my keyboard... I like this keyboard
05:33.33 Axman6 i also like how easy the tools for OS X are to use for the gui. you drag and drop some stuff, put it where it tells you, and you end up with a HIG complient interface, that's fully OpenGL backed, and looks great
05:33.45 Axman6 haha, ok man, take care
05:34.11 starseeker If you don't like X, you might take a look at http://picogui.org/ or http://fresco.org/
05:36.08 Axman6 interesting
06:41.41 brlcad Axman6: I don't see them as wankers, it was pretty cool/useful that they released openNURBS at all, and they're not actively prohibiting anyone -- they're just not going to help make a direct competitor to a product they sell
06:42.35 brlcad the reason they released it was to give people free 3DM read/write file support for the Rhino file format -- we could really trivially write a Rhino-to-BRL-CAD importer/exporter now
06:45.21 Axman6 yeah
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08:21.11 *** topic/#brlcad is BRL-CAD Open Source Solid Modeling || http://brlcad.org || http://sf.net/projects/brlcad || Channel logs at http://ibot.rikers.org/%23brlcad/ || BRL-CAD is on scan.coverity.com but still offline || Release 7.12.0 coming soon to a desktop near you
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08:48.27 CIA-30 BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * 10brlcad/include/vmath.h:
08:48.27 CIA-30 BRL-CAD: provide DEG2RAD and RAD2DEG constants for pi/180 and 180/pi; rename the new
08:48.27 CIA-30 BRL-CAD: V3AE2DIR to V3DIR_FROM_AZEL to be more consistent with other vmath macros,
08:48.27 CIA-30 BRL-CAD: similarly making first arg the dir instead of last; implement the complementary
08:48.27 CIA-30 BRL-CAD: AZEL_FROM_V3DIR for setting an az/el from a direction vector as well (untested)
08:49.27 CIA-30 BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * 10brlcad/src/librt/view_obj.c: update from V3AE2DIR to newly renamed V3DIR_FROM_AZEL macro name
08:55.04 Z80-Boy Did anyone from here already get contacted by Google recruitment?
08:55.26 brlcad huh?
08:55.30 CIA-30 BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * 10brlcad/src/libbn/const.c: use the vmath.h/math.h macros where available (math.h are generally higher precision), convert all constants to fastf_t values.
08:56.14 Z80-Boy They said they have Vont Cerf and Ken Thomson
08:56.17 Z80-Boy Vint
08:57.20 brlcad they hire all sorts of people ... like many many many companies
08:59.55 Z80-Boy Is it true they are famous for secretivity?
09:00.21 Axman6 sounds more like apple. google are pretty open
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09:39.07 Z80-Boy brlcad: do you someone who could donate his superfluous supercomputing capacity for ocassional rendering of a project like Ronja?
09:39.32 Z80-Boy Like I would like to make the video anti-aliased but that would render a month...
09:39.43 Z80-Boy on my laptop
09:50.14 Axman6 Z80-Boy: what're you rendering and how?
09:50.29 Z80-Boy Axman6: Ronja models, using BRL-CAD rt
09:51.09 Axman6 right, never heard of ronja
09:51.24 Z80-Boy http://ronja.twibright.com/3d/
09:52.48 Axman6 hmm, i'm confused now
09:53.06 Axman6 are mounting brackets really that interesting? :P
09:54.43 Z80-Boy There are no mounting brackets on the page I posted. Mounting brackets are mentioned in the news on the title page and there is no 3D model of mounting brackets./
09:56.49 Axman6 the pics look like mounting brackets to me, but anyway. looks like a cool idea now i know what it does
09:57.14 Z80-Boy aha I thought you are talking about the specific part of Ronja that is officially called mounting brackets
09:57.59 Z80-Boy The 3D models are important for people to know how to put all the parts together.
09:58.17 Z80-Boy Also to see what it looks like how it's interfaced to the building etc.
09:58.28 Z80-Boy How bulky it is
09:58.31 Axman6 yeah
09:58.55 Axman6 what's wrong with wifi and parabolic reflectors anyway? :P
09:59.07 Z80-Boy There's nothing wrong with them
09:59.18 Z80-Boy They just have a different set of advantages and weaknesses
10:00.51 Z80-Boy Here is some discussion of possible problems with WiFi that Ronja can be a solution for: http://ronja.twibright.com/wifi.php
10:13.53 vedge Z80-Boy: very cool. i know some people who are having problems with interference from airplanes in my area and it's so bad they're basically stuck with an unreliable cable ISP because of this.
10:14.31 vedge we have a very good wifi provider, and i know people there have been trying to figure out a way around this problem. i'll send them the link.
10:18.17 Z80-Boy I had an Internet connection through 2 Ronjas in series and it was quite reliable
10:18.30 Z80-Boy The biggest problem was they were still prototypes and in process of debugging
10:18.51 Z80-Boy But they still genrally appeared to be more reliable than wifis and cables we had in the same network :)
10:26.55 vedge cool
10:28.36 vedge i'm opening a pcb shop, in case you're looking for a small/medium qty manufacturer in north america
10:36.10 archivist vedge #electronics has people asking about pcb makers now and again
10:36.55 Z80-Boy vedge: I already have a company where I send prototypes
10:39.53 Z80-Boy vedge: can you send post order internationally?
10:41.05 Z80-Boy Can you do all the necessary technologies - HAL, through plating, solder mask, edge routing?
10:41.11 Z80-Boy I mean edge milling
10:45.42 vedge archivist: thanks for the tip
10:46.14 vedge Z80-Boy: i'm in canada, i think sending small pcbs internationally through canada post would be around $10
10:47.11 Z80-Boy If you were interested you could sell the Ronja PCBs and I could put you on the website as a supplier
10:47.22 vedge i can do all of this, but i don't have a machine in my PCB assembly line for edge milling, extra setup time would be involved for that
10:47.45 Z80-Boy The transmitter has 3 rectangular millings
10:48.05 Z80-Boy can you dissolve the cost in a larger series?
10:48.49 vedge i wonder if punch pressing would work for PCB material, that would be a lot cheaper than actual milling.
10:48.51 Z80-Boy Here is the old shop http://ronjashop.com/info.php?lang=en
10:48.53 vedge yes
10:49.06 Z80-Boy I don't know if this guy is still operating
10:49.17 Z80-Boy He doesn't seem to having upgraded from Twister to Twister2
10:49.24 archivist pressing is normal for paper boards
10:49.33 Z80-Boy He has the prices on his website you could see if you can be competitive
10:50.06 Z80-Boy Of course only in case such a small project is actually interesting for you financially
10:52.46 vedge my equipment is not entirely ready for production just yet, i'm still working on the testing phase. i'll get back to you on this.
10:53.41 vedge i have basically all of the fabrication equipment ready, but no testing system.
10:54.40 Z80-Boy you mean electrical and optical testing?
10:55.53 vedge yes
10:56.02 vedge and i can't exactly afford a $200k "bed of nails"
10:57.12 Z80-Boy I wonder if with all the cost of handling individual orders a project like Ronja could be interesting for you financially
10:57.40 archivist heh send RF testing to me in the UK
10:57.51 Z80-Boy It should theoretically be a small, but continuous income
10:58.31 Z80-Boy Like the Ronjashop sold already about 500 boards IIRC
10:58.55 Z80-Boy It's actually a student who always orders a series of 100 or 200 and then sells it apart individually
10:59.16 Z80-Boy You get 1/6 of the price you would pay if you ordered your board individually in a PCB manufacturere.
10:59.34 vedge oh, this is exactly the sort of project i'm interested into.
10:59.44 Z80-Boy that's good
10:59.59 vedge i have a mostly-automated assembly line, i order films and supplies in bulk, but it's far from being a big plant.
11:00.15 Z80-Boy Can you do optical testing?
11:00.48 Z80-Boy I think below 3 pieces no testing is prescribed and above 3 optical I am not sure
11:01.22 Z80-Boy One should also check if the gerbers can be loaded into your system. I am using a free software that generates the negative drawing command which some softwares that don
11:01.22 vedge what do you mean by optical testing?
11:01.32 Z80-Boy t implement RS 274-X completely cannot crunch
11:01.43 vedge oh, sure. i'm using my own software for this.
11:01.45 Z80-Boy Making a picture of the board and comparing with a reference picture
11:01.51 Z80-Boy to find copper bridges gaps etc.
11:02.44 Z80-Boy You could even sell with part bags if it were interesting for you, like kits - would be more convenient for the user, would increase interest in the project and sales
11:03.00 Z80-Boy Now the interest is going down due to 5GHz WiFi competition.
11:03.14 Z80-Boy And because people have to buy all the parts themselves
11:04.17 Z80-Boy I hope once maybe someone manages to run a shop like this and sponsor my project so I can improve the kilometers and megabits increase interest and his sales
11:04.23 Z80-Boy Kinda mutual symbiosis
11:07.01 vedge as far as optical testing goes, i suppose it would depend on the resolution. i don't have a microscope unfortunately.
11:07.22 Z80-Boy Or can you manufacture it reliably?
11:07.27 vedge i have a machine shop, i could probably manufacture parts but i don't know if it would be cost effective at all. i'd have to look more closely at the model.
11:07.44 Z80-Boy I don't mean machine parts, but electronics parts
11:07.52 Z80-Boy diodes transistors resistors LEDs HC gates
11:09.40 vedge sure, but it's just a matter of cost. my process is reliable but i still need to figure out bare-PCB testing
11:10.38 vedge if put a potentially defect board on the pick and place and then functional testing reveals problems i can't really recover the parts.
11:21.15 Z80-Boy vedge: I don't mean that you would populate the boards. That would be an unnecessary cost. The user can populate it himself easily.
11:23.34 vedge i'm not sure optical comparison would be that useful with my process. i'd expect most defects to involve the vias, as opposed to the surface of the board, unless there are very tiny features.
11:24.12 Z80-Boy vedge: I misinformed with an old information. The existing shop apparently already upgraded to Twister2.
11:24.13 vedge populating the boards isn't expensive for me if the components are SMT
11:24.55 Z80-Boy Some are not
11:25.41 Z80-Boy you could pre-populate the SMT ones, though.
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13:00.15 Defcon oem version :D
13:00.19 Defcon guess not ^^
13:01.06 Maloeran You think so? I'll look for the usual refund clause in the EULA
13:01.42 Maloeran I think the point is mostly to annoy HP for forcing me to buy software I didn't want
13:02.21 Z80-Boy Forcing? Noone is forcing you into buying anything :)
13:02.33 Z80-Boy You had an option to not buy the whole notbeook
13:03.38 Defcon no
13:03.53 Defcon there was another case just like this
13:04.04 Defcon the guy won like 1200$ back
13:04.13 minute wtf?
13:04.20 Z80-Boy and how much did he pay for lawyers?
13:04.30 Defcon he won
13:04.37 Defcon so nothing..?
13:05.01 Z80-Boy In such case I prefer designing my own hardware that works 100%.
13:05.12 Z80-Boy Courts and lawyers are inherently unreliable and can backfire
13:05.27 Defcon indeed
13:05.48 Z80-Boy For example since I made myself Ronja, I now don't have to care about NDA binary-only WiFi drivers, bugs in WiFi firmware and how badly they designed their access method
13:06.16 Maloeran Z80-Boy, I didn't sign the EULA before buying the laptop
13:06.21 Maloeran And there's clearly a refund clause in there
13:06.26 Z80-Boy Maloeran: that's good
13:06.53 Z80-Boy Maloeran: so you should get your money back easily, shouldn't you
13:07.18 Maloeran Theorically, yes. I'm sure they don't enjoy doing this though
13:07.36 Z80-Boy Noone enjoys coughing up money
13:07.37 Defcon http://lxer.com/module/newswire/view/94705/index.html
13:07.50 Defcon i thought he got more money than this
13:08.18 Maloeran 140 euros, not too bad
13:10.22 Z80-Boy Noone should really complain about hardware anymore since we have free software for designing hardware
13:10.23 Defcon indeed not
13:10.31 Z80-Boy And we have that already for several years
13:10.56 Defcon ppl tend to complain very fast
13:11.04 Z80-Boy It's like - you don't like Microsoft Windows? Take Linux. If you don't like that one, pimp it up until you like it ;-)
13:11.52 Maloeran http://www.rayforce.net/hp000.png
13:11.56 Z80-Boy Or like complaining that AutoCAD is crap and not taking BRL-CAD
13:12.03 Defcon and what if ppl can't pimp it up
13:12.35 Defcon lol Maloeran
13:13.23 Maloeran Looks clear enough to me
13:14.00 Z80-Boy Doesn't Leninovo sell notebooks without Windows?
13:15.01 Z80-Boy By using Vista you agree to a) not have any opinion b) stop thinking c) obey everything Microsoft says d) voluntarily and irrevocably giving up your all human rights to Microsoft Corporation (MSFT)
13:15.56 Defcon Don't sell your soul to the devil!
13:16.49 Z80-Boy I don't like products for whose usage I need a lawyer
13:17.08 Z80-Boy Lawyers are expensive and it totals up pretty expensive :)
13:22.40 Defcon haha yeah
13:23.45 Maloeran The point is more to get these companies to stop trying to force buying software on people
13:24.19 Maloeran Although I'm leaving for south america in 4 days, it's not the best timing to begin even a brief legal battle
13:25.36 Defcon :D
13:27.49 minute Maloeran: They aren't forcing people to buy antyhing.
13:28.20 minute You choose to buy a laptop that comes with Vista installed, you could easily choose to purchase a laptop that doesn't.
13:28.32 Defcon if you want that particular laptop/.. they are
13:28.52 Maloeran minute, there's an EULA that states I can get a refund for it
13:28.53 Defcon as a customer you have the right to buy the laptop without software
13:28.57 Defcon indeed
13:29.02 Maloeran I didn't agree to the EULA before purchasing the laptop
13:29.27 minute Maloeran: So get a refund?
13:29.36 Maloeran Will try to
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19:12.49 *** topic/#brlcad is BRL-CAD Open Source Solid Modeling || http://brlcad.org || http://sf.net/projects/brlcad || Channel logs at http://ibot.rikers.org/%23brlcad/ || BRL-CAD is on scan.coverity.com but still offline || Release 7.12.0 coming soon to a desktop near you
20:18.17 CIA-30 BRL-CAD: 03bob1961 * 10brlcad/misc/win32-msvc8/ (38 files in 38 dirs): Initial check-in.
20:22.00 CIA-30 BRL-CAD: 03bob1961 * 10brlcad/misc/win32-msvc8/brlcad/brlcad.sln: Added 38 more projects. Mostly fb utils and their missing libs.
20:26.52 CIA-30 BRL-CAD: 03bob1961 * 10brlcad/include/config_win.h: Define HAVE_RAND and fmax.
20:29.27 CIA-30 BRL-CAD: 03bob1961 * 10brlcad/include/orle.h: Added ORLE_EXPORT for exposing variables and functions on windows.
20:30.47 CIA-30 BRL-CAD: 03bob1961 * 10brlcad/include/vfont-if.h: Mods to expose vfont_get() and vfont_free() on windows.
20:32.25 CIA-30 BRL-CAD: 03bob1961 * 10brlcad/src/fb/ (8 files): Mods to get things compiling on windows.
20:35.17 CIA-30 BRL-CAD: 03bob1961 * 10brlcad/src/other/libutahrle/include/rle.h: Mods to expose variables and functions.
20:37.47 CIA-30 BRL-CAD: 03bob1961 * 10brlcad/src/other/libutahrle/ (rle_getrow.c rle_open_f.c scanargs.c include/rle_config.h): Mods to get things compiling on windows.
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21:59.18 starseeker wee
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22:56.58 CIA-30 BRL-CAD: 03bob1961 * 10brlcad/misc/win32-msvc8/ (44 files in 44 dirs): Clean up the project files a little.
23:44.25 yukonbob yay! Looks like Tcl 8.5.0 out today...
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