IRC log for #brlcad on 20080713

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11:33.11 GTrax ??
11:36.11 GTrax Ah well - it's Sunday. Maybe not too many are indoors :)
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12:33.41 homovulgaris brlcad: just read the irc logs :P "just a gsoc student" ;)
12:40.40 homovulgaris libged breaking the build on gcc
12:43.04 homovulgaris ged_private.h some static - nostatic trouble with ged_persp_mat function
12:43.23 homovulgaris and Sean, did u see the boost_base doubt i had asked ?
12:45.08 homovulgaris one more build doubt, I am including certain C headers in solver_test.cpp , it seems i have to manually specify -I../other/tcl/generic to (CPPFLAGS) for the tcl.h location
12:45.25 homovulgaris whats the right method rather than this blind include ?
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14:48.56 ``Erik um, that may be out of sync with the, uh, actual tcl being used. There should be something like $(TCL_CPPFLAGS) in your CFLAGS or CPPFLAGS in Makefile.am
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15:00.51 homovulgaris TCL_CPPFLAGS is there in AM_CPPFLAGS but maybe i should add it to the individual binary as well ( in this case solver_test_CPPFLAGS ) .. hmm
15:02.59 homovulgaris Erik, have u seen the bu_list example in bu.h . shouldn't there be a bu_free(my_entry) bu_free(new_entry) etc ? or does freeing the main list using bu_free free all the allocated memory ?
15:06.33 ``Erik remove your .o file, try making it again, and look at the build line?
15:07.00 ``Erik uhmmmm, I'd have to dig into that :/
15:08.04 ``Erik look at line ~510 of bu.h
15:08.18 ``Erik does that help?
15:11.14 starseeker_ forgot how ungodly long it takes to build VTK...
15:14.24 homovulgaris Erik, adding TCL_CPPFLAGS to the binary_CPPFLAGS worked :) i dont like tcl
15:16.08 ``Erik :D
15:16.41 ``Erik tcl has some good and bad aspects to it... personally, i'd favor embedding lithp or thcheme, perhaps ruby or python these days
15:22.00 homovulgaris lots of projects happening in python these days.. :) i still like C and C++ mostly :)
15:22.15 homovulgaris there is something allergic about java
15:25.58 ``Erik once java finishes going open source, it may be semi-acceptable
15:26.40 ``Erik python and ruby seem to be the big flashy new ones, though
15:27.01 homovulgaris bbut over the past 5 or 6 years there has been so much code base in java.. I mean lots of application software being written in it..
15:27.04 ``Erik seems like python is a favorite of the linux world and ruby is a favorite of the bsd world heh
15:27.21 homovulgaris ruby rox :)
15:27.33 homovulgaris and i am from the linux world :P
15:27.37 ``Erik yeah, businesses like it, but it's a royal pain to install on, say, fbsd.... not wroth the hassle
15:27.44 ``Erik worth
15:27.52 ``Erik due to licensing issues
15:27.56 ``Erik (java, that is)
15:28.37 homovulgaris even in sectors like bioinformatics.. i mean gene analysis etc. is done mostly using perl but so much of their visulization and other code is in Java ..
15:29.00 homovulgaris at least in academia and science they should stick to open source completely as a policy decision
15:30.05 ``Erik schools here in the US used to push c++, and moved to java as I was leaving (mostly due to marketting, I believe)
15:30.14 ``Erik a lot of the c++ was msvc and windows based, though
15:30.52 ``Erik the notion of teaching scheme, or using a fbsd.. a lot of the wuss students thought it was stupid and irrelevant (they were looking for a vocational "programming" approach, not computer science)
15:31.34 ``Erik and schools feel pressure to put out what the industry wants, and the industry feels pressured to move towards what the schools are pushing out, so suns JZOMFGJAVA! blitz campaigning was... highly effective :)
15:31.39 homovulgaris In india the universities push c++, but lots of training institutes , polytechnics and so on pushing java, since it fetches jobs :)
15:31.55 homovulgaris huge outsourcing industry in India providing technology support in Java i guess :P
15:32.36 ``Erik yeah... *glare* :D
15:32.57 homovulgaris at that time i guess they pushed the PORTABILITY thing so much .. and i guess in the end it is not that portable anyways :) bsd for instance
15:33.43 ``Erik no, java is not portable at all, it runs binaries made for the java ABI, the "portable" aspect is that there are emulators for that machine available for a few OS/arch platforms
15:34.11 ``Erik and even those tend to be fractured (even suns reference versions), so the popular snipe is "write once, debug everywhere"
15:34.26 homovulgaris i always find the VM idea a roundabout approach to getting things done.. :P
15:35.13 homovulgaris Sun has an ambassador in our university , trying to get students to use solaris more :)
15:50.58 CIA-60 BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r31804 10/brlcad/trunk/src/libged/vutil.c: static mismatch
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16:28.13 Axman6 homovulgaris: there's a small group at ours who put on the occasional talk. i get free solaris DVD's, so i'm happy
16:40.30 CIA-60 BRL-CAD: 03homovulgaris * r31805 10/brlcad/trunk/src/librt/primitives/ell/ell.c: commenting out code obsolete due to pc_pc_set modification
16:41.09 CIA-60 BRL-CAD: 03homovulgaris * r31806 10/brlcad/trunk/include/pc.h: Macros for pc_pc_set initialization, push, and free
16:43.01 CIA-60 BRL-CAD: 03homovulgaris * r31807 10/brlcad/trunk/include/raytrace.h: modification of pc_pc_set : using bu_list in pc_param and pc_constrnt structures
16:45.50 homovulgaris Axman6: ;) Yeah pretty much the same deal here.. ocassional talks, demonstrations etc.. :)
16:50.03 CIA-60 BRL-CAD: 03homovulgaris * r31808 10/brlcad/trunk/src/libpc/pcParser.h: addition of pcVariable and pcConstraint grammar structs and Parser class definition
16:55.56 CIA-60 BRL-CAD: 03homovulgaris * r31809 10/brlcad/trunk/src/libpc/ (Makefile.am solver_test.cpp): Testing pc_pc_set modifications and Parser::parse()
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17:30.45 jonored Hello. I've a question: is there something in BRL-CAD that would be the equivalent of a macro in Lisp? What I mean is, is there some way of, rather than programmatically generating a shape by building an external program, writing the result to a database file, loading it in, etc. and redoing that process if something changes, of just embedding a (small) script into a model, and having the information that script is run with kept in the
17:31.39 jonored So, for instance, I could write a macro that generates an involute gear, and would be able change the number of teeth on a gear by just modifying its definition?
17:32.42 jonored I know that there are some features like that, but they seem like they lose information such that either the model is no longer the preferred form for editing of the design, or you have to redo work every time a definition changes.
17:33.06 archivist shape and body of a gear is not as constant as tooth shape
17:34.24 archivist and low number gears have differently shaped teeth
17:34.59 jonored I'm mostly saying a gear as an example.
17:36.41 jonored Although I'd be surprised if it weren't possible to encode the variations over a useful range - what I want would be more than a simple pattern.
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17:54.07 jonored_ ...and the router goes away and I don't notice. did I miss replies?
17:54.42 archivist no
17:55.51 jonored_ ...okay. Does wanting something like that make sense, at least (even if it'd be challenging to do for that example)?
17:56.31 archivist it does (i do it in SolodWorks)
17:57.24 archivist parametric parts (driven by an axcel table)
17:57.29 archivist excel
17:58.15 jonored_ Okay. The other two questions associated with that are then whether it's there in BRL-CAD, and whether it'd be a reasonable addition (for me to work on, I mean.)
18:03.22 homovulgaris parametric parts :) well once libpc works out well we shouldnt need solidworks
18:03.38 homovulgaris but it is still at baby steps
18:03.51 archivist waiting to jump ship :))
18:04.47 jonored_ libpc?
18:05.01 homovulgaris parametrics and constraints library..
18:05.22 jonored_ facepalms.
18:05.47 jonored_ Not in the tarball for users yet?
18:05.51 archivist homovulgaris, will it have rotations on axis eg gearing
18:06.26 homovulgaris jonored_: it is in the svn. but far from the actual requirements of parametric parts.
18:06.54 homovulgaris archivist: what exactly would rotations on an axis involve ? positioning dependent on an axis ?
18:07.37 archivist I rotate gear a and all related gears(and assemlies) rotate
18:07.48 homovulgaris first phase of constraints would be implementations such as is_tangent or is_perpendicular and so on..
18:08.23 homovulgaris well i think the rotation of interconnected gears could be specified as a set of constraints
18:08.37 jonored_ I'll check it out and take a look anyways; perhaps I can find a way to be helpful.
18:08.51 archivist its really nice to put a mouse pointer on a gear push it and the mechanism moves as it should
18:09.18 homovulgaris archivist: almost like physics simulation ;)
18:09.24 archivist yesum
18:09.26 homovulgaris and yep in the end that is pretty much the idea
18:10.24 homovulgaris rotation of gears is basically a sort of relation between a controlling rotation of one gear and change in the orientation of the rest according to change in the orientation of the control gear right.
18:10.45 homovulgaris It just needs to be parametrized in terms of teeth number and so on.
18:11.16 archivist yes except some reversal and if one is fixed then the housing moves
18:11.48 archivist but all should work out as you get the idea
18:12.33 homovulgaris jonored_: right now i have just started writing the parser for parsing constraint expressions.. and by constraints i mean stuff like "radius<3" A "tangent to" B and so on "position of sph.centre is on the cube" and so on
18:12.43 archivist my last job here was a sun and planet gear assembly
18:13.52 homovulgaris archivist: hmm.. in terms of libpc , the question really would be how do we extract those relationships, i mean i cannot expect the user to specify mathematical relationship between orientation ( rotation angles)
18:14.37 homovulgaris I will have to derive them using some simple point/teeth contact constraint between the gear parts
18:15.03 jonored_ I seem to remember doing almost that kind of specification with Pro-E, just with selecting specific sorts of relationships.
18:15.32 archivist that depend how the user is prompted, I add a gear mate betweent two gears ans specify the numbers and direction if the program guesses incorrectly
18:16.00 homovulgaris and jonored_ the gear teeth number change, well theoretically , that sort of thing should be possible using libpc and sketch system
18:16.36 archivist the mate is on the axis not the teeth in solidworks
18:16.44 homovulgaris basically teeth angle radius etc. being interrelated
18:16.53 homovulgaris hmm..
18:17.11 archivist could be pulleys and belts
18:17.31 archivist or chain wheels
18:17.51 homovulgaris yeah get the idea, oh.. so u set relationships between axes,
18:17.59 homovulgaris specify rotation ratio
18:18.07 archivist yes
18:18.29 homovulgaris well that could be implemented .. no need for comlex derivations from teeth contact blah blah :)
18:18.30 jonored_ *nod*. Although I'd still like a way for things like at least the invocation part of things like the wall generator/plant generator/tire generator to be kept in the model file.
18:19.27 archivist contact type is also useful for special types of mechanical motion
18:19.53 homovulgaris currently and as per plan, libpc will be storing the constraints in the .g file only.. u would be able to invoke it using "yet to be implemented" constraint editing commands..
18:20.06 homovulgaris well in this case parameter editing commands.. pretty much the same..
18:21.01 jonored_ Is there a programming language embedded?
18:21.07 homovulgaris contact type would be a bit tough, computationally i mean , if you are dealing with two ranges of points..
18:21.35 homovulgaris jonored_: programming language ? in libpc ?
18:21.55 homovulgaris if u mean a method of expressing relations, i am implementing a grammar using boost::spirit
18:22.33 jonored_ Would I be able to specify an arbitrary computable shape (provided that it is definable with the primitives that BRL-CAD has) from a set of paramaters?
18:24.09 homovulgaris with primitives that BRL-CAD has and representation of how the parameters are related to primitives and each other yes..
18:25.01 jonored_ ...Then I do believe that there is a programming language there in some form or another. Cool :)
18:26.42 homovulgaris but ur idea of adding scripts to the objects is nice..
18:27.10 homovulgaris maybe brlcad (Sean) would have more to say about this :)
18:28.22 archivist with a part on screen I select properties and select one of my preset configurations and the gear redraws to the new shape and no of teeth
18:32.00 homovulgaris implementation-wise it would be an addition to the property object i guess , or if they already have something like construct_from_parameters just a call to it ?
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18:32.34 homovulgaris s/property object/object property :P
18:33.19 jonored_ It's essentially the same thing - just an imperative language to the declarative one you're writing.
18:33.54 homovulgaris jonored_: the present database system does not have any method of including code, it only has mostly geometric and a few non-geometric object types
18:38.17 jonored_ i'd be surprised if there'd be much difference between adding constraints and adding imperative code, though.
18:48.36 homovulgaris hmm.. i am still unable to visualize the workflow (implementation wise) for the imperative case
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18:52.39 homovulgaris Ralith: I checked out reprap.. awesome stuff .. hoping to make my rapid prototyper soon.. maybe september :)
18:52.44 jonored_ For defining macros it basically dumps the user straight to the assumption of being a script programmer; I don't know any way of getting as much power as you get that way without that. For the user of a script, it'd probably look a bit like using a primitive - tell it that the definition is by this macro, and that here are the parameters to the macro, and there's a shape there. I'd want to have it so that the macro can take geometry a
18:54.22 homovulgaris yeah scripting support is provided in most applications right.. like catvba for catia , rhinoscript and so on.. ;) i worked on catvba for around 6 months last year
18:54.28 homovulgaris i am not sure but probably we already have a tcl interface..
18:54.47 homovulgaris dunno what all features it supports
18:57.04 homovulgaris jonored_: and these macros would be stored as a separate file ?
18:57.46 homovulgaris like in catia for example , it is stored as a separate .catvba file
18:58.49 jonored_ There are reasons to do both; on the one hand, if you send someone a model, you want it to be possible to edit the definitions of stuff in the model, on the other hand, you want it to be easy to get them from a library, because more people would be using them than writing them.
19:00.56 jonored_ The main thing (to me) is that they'd get run when their inputs are changed, without needing the user to invoke them explicitly and redo work in the model.
19:02.27 brlcad tunes in
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19:03.02 homovulgaris hmm.. so ideally they should support both insertion into file as well as independent existence.. and indeed without generated geometry life would be tough in any cad application :)
19:03.11 homovulgaris brlcad is the man :)
19:03.13 brlcad reads backlog
19:03.36 poolio errr
19:03.40 SlickT10 asdf
19:03.50 poolio brlcad: Could you help me think through some basic dumb geometry math when you get a chance?
19:04.31 poolio Trying to think of the best way to compute a rectangle that encloses the face given the points and the plane equation
19:07.34 jonored_ Fills the same sort of role as the parameterization, I think, just as explicit steps rather than implicit constraints. The differences are mostly to do with speed of the code (because the constraint version needs to run a solver - which might be better or worse than what a person might write in terms of getting it done), and expressiveness - some things are easier to think of as constraints, some as steps.
19:09.35 homovulgaris hmm.. true.. I am planning on spending quite some time optimizing the solver once i finish the basic framework that is.. and expressing step wise generation of geometry would be a bit twisted in terms of constraints..
19:09.37 brlcad howdy jonored_
19:10.28 jonored_ hullo
19:10.35 brlcad libpc will ultimately be central to any long-term implementation of fully parametric geometry, but it's also worth noting that a fair bit of that is already possible too
19:11.05 homovulgaris but would the macro interface look much different from using mk_* () ? like mk_sph mk_ell and so on.. basically macros could add a layer on top of them to do some additional calculation to generate their arguments from the parameters
19:11.17 brlcad via libwdb, you can write procedural database generators (in C) that are, of course, hard-coded but entirely parametric from an input perspective
19:12.01 brlcad this has also been done in Tcl directly in mged before, where there were tcl objects defined for a given .g such that the modeler could store the routine in the .g and invoke it as needed to create geometry
19:12.37 brlcad what you're suggesting is also very much closely related to the last primitives idea at http://brlcad.org/~sean/ideas.html
19:13.10 brlcad where it becomes a full-fledged new primitive with inboard or outboard script storage that gets evaluated at run-time (per constraints or whatever)
19:14.11 brlcad poolio: possibly in a bit :)
19:14.20 Ralith homovulgaris: cool, me too
19:15.02 brlcad Ralith: how goes the tutorializing?
19:15.21 Ralith brlcad: great; I'm onto #15 today
19:16.13 Ralith libpc is that SoC project?
19:16.30 poolio brlcad: ping me when you've got time :)
19:17.05 jonored_ brlcad: That does sound like /exactly/ what I'm talking about. The generators in C are what I was aware of, but inconvenient - especially to a lisp programmer.
19:17.34 Ralith jonored_: I bet you could wrap the C api in lisp
19:18.47 jonored_ Ralith: It occurs to me that that statement has two possible meanings - I was meaning that it's inconvenient to someone who is accustomed to extending their language's compiler as he sees fit while writing his program, not as a wish to write generators in Lisp.
19:18.53 brlcad Ralith: yeah, one of our four projects: http://brlcad.org/d/node/23
19:19.58 Ralith jonored_: I'm not quite sure I follow. Doesn't lisp, like most languages, have some mechanism for accessing C libraries, which can then be wrapped to make the interface more clean and lispy?
19:20.33 brlcad jonored_: now one side effect of mged's built-in scriptability is that you can use pretty much ANY language to write "mged scripts" .. doesn't get you parameterized geometry nor a high-level api nor state management, but it does let you do just about anything you can do in mged from a given arbitrary language -- there's an example on the website .. (digs)
19:21.01 jonored_ Ralith: Oh, easily - but I was meaning that I wanted an idea from lisp in brl-cad, not that I wanted to use lisp for brl-cad.
19:21.11 Ralith oh, ok
19:21.13 brlcad here's an example of mged scripted with about 3 different I/O approaches using simple posix shell scripting: http://brlcad.org/wiki/SGI_Cube
19:21.25 jonored_ because it's essentially /the/ idea that makes lisp really powerful.
19:21.39 brlcad generates some geometry and renders it
19:22.19 brlcad once our new libged library is complete (which is at the heart of ALL mged commands), the plan is to swigify the whole thing so that you can access a consistent command layer from any language
19:22.27 homovulgaris Ralith: yep libpc is a SoC project.. :)
19:22.28 brlcad (directly, instead of indirectly)
19:22.43 Ralith homovulgaris: yeah, brlcad provided the link
19:23.04 Ralith (you must have a database of handy descriptive links on hand or something)
19:23.06 homovulgaris just saw :)
19:27.15 brlcad Ralith: not really
19:27.36 brlcad just know where the stuff is on the website
19:27.46 brlcad there's a heck of a lot more ;)
19:27.53 Ralith yeah, I've been browsing
19:31.12 brlcad and a ton of stuff not even uploaded yet
19:44.12 homovulgaris brlcad: :) my boost_base doubt :D
19:51.20 brlcad homovulgaris: que?
19:51.35 brlcad oh, a question you had?
19:56.55 brlcad homovulgaris: hmm.. you totally should not have needed to wrap the includes in extern "C" .. if there are decls in our headers that need wrapping, they should get fixed instead of adding a work-around
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21:34.39 andrecastelo hey guys
21:35.32 Ralith hullo
21:36.26 brlcad howdy andrecastelo
21:36.42 andrecastelo howdy brlcad
21:36.49 andrecastelo hi ``Erik
21:47.00 brlcad starseeker_: iqtest.dk is the site I was talking about, fun stuff ;)
22:05.29 CIA-60 BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r31810 10/brlcad/trunk/regress/ (9 files): regression test typo, refer to the variable instead of some invalid var expansion so that hopefully mged will find tcl/tk if we're regression testing
22:20.10 CIA-60 BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r31811 10/brlcad/trunk/src/librt/primitives/dsp/dsp.c: ignore dsp's with no data source a little more gracefully instead of bombing
22:21.08 CIA-60 BRL-CAD: 03andrecastelo * r31812 10/brlcad/trunk/src/rt/viewmlt.c: Fixed point lists and path lists allocation and deallocation. Each point hit is now stored in a path list. This will be useful for path tracing.
22:23.45 homovulgaris brlcad: checked without extern "C" .. works fine :)
22:28.07 homovulgaris and the boost_base doubt..
22:28.11 homovulgaris 11:08.17homovulgarisbtw, i wanted to use the ax_boost_base.m4 macro i added using something like this addition to the configure.ac http://rafb.net/p/v3tpKU36.html
22:28.11 homovulgaris 11:08.42homovulgarisbut it gives some trouble while configuring in tcl saying LDFLAGS was not set during the last run
22:28.11 homovulgaris 11:09.07homovulgarisis there something additional i have to do other than adding the macro to m4 dir and the code to configure.ac
22:28.22 alex_joni brlcad: that was quite fun (the iqtest.dk site..)
22:28.47 homovulgaris i think i will have to modify the macro probably ?
22:29.38 poolio alex_joni: I just took it too :P how'd you do?
22:30.06 alex_joni 133.. but I didn't have nerve to really answer the last couple of questions
22:30.34 alex_joni still had about 20 minutes left :) .. but it's 1am here
22:30.40 alex_joni so I'm off to bed ;)
22:31.55 alex_joni poolio: u?
22:32.28 poolio alex_joni: 126, I got frustrated and didnt do the last few as well. I didn't see the pattern and went "arghhhhhhh"
22:33.25 alex_joni haha :)
22:33.28 alex_joni maybe one day :P
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23:14.55 homovulgaris 4.44 am :) time to sleep
23:15.27 homovulgaris will write a good grammar tomorrow
23:33.21 brlcad homovulgaris: there's nothing additional you have to do other than blowing away the automake/autoconf caches assuming there are no problems with the m4 itself
23:38.46 brlcad andrecastelo: something to keep in mind, at some point you'll want to optimize it so that there are no malloc/free (e.g. bu_calloc, BU_GETSTRUCT, etc) calls occurring during ray-trace (prep is fine, viewstart/viewend is fine)
23:39.31 brlcad andrecastelo: that will generally result in a substantial performance hit .. and given you're writing a path-tracer, you'll want to keep an eye on performance very early on
23:40.25 brlcad since you'll ultimately be shooting billions of rays (or more) per image
23:45.41 andrecastelo hmm, i understand.. but how can I do that?? something like how scanline is treated?
23:46.23 andrecastelo allocate a big array in the beginning.. ??

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