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| 02:38.12 | starseeker | ooo, NSA history |
| 02:38.31 | starseeker | loves it when more interesting public domain stuff appears |
| 02:40.12 | starseeker | chuckles evilly at the idea of uploading scanned historical army stuff from National Archives onto bz, assuming he can find it :-) |
| 02:54.05 | ``Erik | heh |
| 02:54.34 | ``Erik | we've been challenged for form-1's on material that was public release before form-1's existed |
| 02:54.58 | ``Erik | and have damaged historical sites to comply with new directives. :( |
| 02:56.29 | ``Erik | like having to remove bldg or rm # if both are in the same area... cuz, y'know, if some arbitrary (but not published) building 403 exists, that's ok, if there's a room 101 somewhere, that's ok... but the fact that there is a bld 403 that has a room 101, woops, then the tarrst win |
| 02:56.53 | ``Erik | excuse the http pun |
| 03:11.28 | starseeker | heh |
| 03:11.51 | starseeker | Drool...: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATID=4094706&CATLN=6&FullDetails=False |
| 03:12.17 | starseeker | http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATID=4959163&CATLN=6&Highlight=%2CMARK%2CIV&accessmethod=0 |
| 03:13.37 | starseeker | Now, how to get my grubby little hands on the tank plans... |
| 03:15.31 | ``Erik | talk to our libraries |
| 03:15.34 | ``Erik | librarians |
| 03:15.48 | ``Erik | they can work miracles and are excited when someone notices them |
| 03:16.16 | ``Erik | back door into 330, they'll be sitting on the right and confused that someone walked in |
| 03:16.18 | ``Erik | :D |
| 03:18.22 | starseeker | heh - I might just try it |
| 03:18.34 | starseeker | not chance I can get to the UK to try in person |
| 03:19.08 | starseeker | er no chance |
| 03:20.18 | starseeker | If I ask for the tank stuff it's modeling related :-) |
| 03:22.27 | starseeker | REALLY wishes they would be more specific about what's in the doggone collection - asking for copies of the "plans of British Tanks" part would probably mean requesting a bookshelf full of stuff |
| 03:22.48 | starseeker | and the sad part is it's STILL a lot better than the National Archives |
| 03:22.50 | starseeker | in the US |
| 03:23.47 | archivist | british archives rule :) |
| 03:24.19 | starseeker | I stuck in a search for tanks and actually got immediately to relevant tank related records |
| 03:24.22 | starseeker | about fainted |
| 03:24.34 | archivist | hides his nick in case he gets found out |
| 03:24.37 | starseeker | heh |
| 03:24.47 | starseeker | do you work there? |
| 03:25.04 | archivist | I volunteer in a local archive |
| 03:25.08 | starseeker | Ah |
| 03:25.43 | starseeker | knows exactly why it's hard to find stuff - indexing it all is probably the work of a hundred lifetimes (not factoring shortened lifespans due to boredom) |
| 03:25.45 | archivist | one day all brit archives will be available online |
| 03:26.01 | ``Erik | um, ww1 UK stuff may be obtainable, but that'd get involved with foreign companies and gov'ts, atm |
| 03:26.08 | archivist | yup Im doing the database bit for ours |
| 03:26.10 | ``Erik | and the paperwork gets a wee bit trickier |
| 03:26.33 | starseeker | ``Erik: In other words, bad idea? |
| 03:26.38 | ``Erik | (assuming it's not already open source (in the gov't sense)) |
| 03:26.42 | starseeker | archivist: cool! |
| 03:27.05 | archivist | I want details of the first tank experiments (Major Baguley worked on it) |
| 03:27.05 | ``Erik | um, wouldn't say that, but if you have interest in going there, grok that it bumps the beaurocracy up an order of magnitude or more |
| 03:27.14 | starseeker | ``Erik: If I'm parsing this correctly, the collection is labeled public records and as a result (by now) it should be clear |
| 03:27.37 | ``Erik | heh, "uh uh uh, can't say it's an armored vehicle, uh, lets call it, uh, a water mover! a tank, y'know, for water!" |
| 03:27.48 | starseeker | pretty much :-) |
| 03:28.37 | ``Erik | 'cept once this monstrosity was slowly clanking over trenches with small ship cannons and machineguns blasting, uh, cover was blown... name stuck, though |
| 03:28.42 | starseeker | ``Erik: paperwork as in "involve more people and answer more questions about why the **** I'm wanting design drawings for a nearly hundered year old piece of junk" or just "more pieces of paper to fill out"? |
| 03:28.54 | archivist | first tank tests were at a car company in the local town (Burton) |
| 03:29.08 | starseeker | archivist: Oh, so it's local history for you? |
| 03:29.12 | ``Erik | just more pieces of paper |
| 03:29.13 | archivist | yes |
| 03:29.19 | starseeker | AWESOME :-) |
| 03:29.26 | archivist | I want moooore |
| 03:29.38 | archivist | Im doing a book on the car company |
| 03:29.57 | starseeker | The national archives might have some of that |
| 03:30.27 | ``Erik | now if the uk were to, y'know, just OS that info in the spirit of remembering important history, problem solved... but that takes effort with no 'immediate and obvious' benefit for the idjits |
| 03:30.31 | starseeker | ``Erik: That's OK. I just have visions of trying to explain who's going to care about a CAD model of the museum's Mark IV :-) |
| 03:30.36 | ``Erik | and, uh, sorry, the US isn't the only country with idjits |
| 03:30.36 | archivist | well the army part is at a University that I need to get at |
| 03:31.09 | archivist | I have two pictures so far |
| 03:31.10 | starseeker | archivist: that can be entertaining |
| 03:31.30 | starseeker | ``Erik: You looking at the 30 year FOI turnaround notation? |
| 03:32.15 | ``Erik | can't do that, company confidential is not suspect to FOIA |
| 03:33.05 | starseeker | no, I ment on the website |
| 03:33.26 | starseeker | thinks all this stuff is just public record in UK, no restrictions |
| 03:33.33 | starseeker | just no one bothered to scan it |
| 03:33.41 | archivist | yet |
| 03:33.47 | starseeker | or if they did, they put it in books and made $$ selling them |
| 03:34.00 | starseeker | archivist: :-) |
| 03:34.17 | ``Erik | hrm, does it have to be a british citizen to request information? is there a 'distribution fee'? |
| 03:34.25 | archivist | Bullock Creeping Grip was brought over here |
| 03:34.27 | starseeker | tries to find out |
| 03:35.37 | archivist | we have to identify to get stuff at major archive |
| 03:36.21 | starseeker | wonder how they react to tourists |
| 03:36.25 | archivist | my public records card is out of date now |
| 03:37.07 | ``Erik | "public records card" already makes things sound far more complex :D |
| 03:37.16 | archivist | :) |
| 03:37.32 | ``Erik | once data in the US goes open source, it's out there... I don't know if citizenship is even looked at for a FOIA letter |
| 03:38.01 | archivist | first major scanning effort the PRO has done is census records |
| 03:38.23 | starseeker | ``Erik: The US national archives issue IDs too for people wanting access to certain stuff |
| 03:38.43 | archivist | then the bar stewards charge on the intarwebs for copies |
| 03:39.55 | archivist | cameras are banned in some archives but they dont care in others |
| 03:40.23 | ``Erik | 'k, I d'no about national archives, foia shtuff is supposedly distribution unlimited (unless I misunderstand), but uhm, "reproduction" fees are common |
| 03:40.48 | starseeker | Um - they want ID to prove identify and address - doesn't seem to say if proving an overseas address counts |
| 03:41.53 | ``Erik | (sorry, not glued to the convo, got punker being ... insane) |
| 03:41.54 | archivist | which tank are you after |
| 03:42.09 | ``Erik | british MK-IV from ww1 |
| 03:42.34 | ``Erik | http://www.peachmountain.com/5Star/US_Army_Ordnance_Museum_Mark_IV_tank.aspx |
| 03:43.58 | archivist | I want details of the embarrassing fail pre mark I |
| 03:43.58 | starseeker | Hmm - looks like for anything under Crown Copyright you need permission from the Image Library |
| 03:44.07 | starseeker | Little Whillie or whatever it was? |
| 03:44.38 | starseeker | Oh that's cute - so the records themselves may not be restricted but what you can do with them is per the controllers of the records |
| 03:44.51 | starseeker | or rather, what you can do with copies |
| 03:44.54 | archivist | no, that is known as the first but there was an earlier experimental one |
| 03:45.25 | archivist | more Bullock than tank |
| 03:46.21 | archivist | A few were relieved of their duties over it as far as I can see |
| 03:47.47 | starseeker | jeez - http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/imagelibrary/price.htm |
| 03:48.56 | ``Erik | ayup, reproduction fees |
| 03:49.04 | ``Erik | don't worry, the us gov't does it, too... |
| 03:49.59 | ``Erik | I mean, ya gotta pay for internet access to certain classes of laws |
| 03:50.02 | ``Erik | eh? O.o |
| 03:50.18 | archivist | I need to cough up for the two pics I want to use |
| 03:50.19 | starseeker | This isn't just reproduction fees - it looks to be perminent usage restrictions |
| 03:50.38 | ``Erik | court cases always have reproduction fees, cd's full of court case results cost thousands of dollars with a 'no redistribution' clause |
| 03:50.47 | archivist | I believe one needs to negotiate |
| 03:51.19 | starseeker | ``Erik: Those restrictions are usually due to the commercial company who packages the court cases and the legality of them is questionable |
| 03:51.30 | ``Erik | (they call it a 'reproduction fee', but it's really a license and you're bound by copyright law) |
| 03:51.59 | starseeker | ``Erik: check public.resource.org |
| 03:52.12 | ``Erik | if that were the case, I'm sure alturists would've put them out public... there was a slashdot article about teh dude in cali suing to have legal statue made freely avaialble not long ago |
| 03:52.18 | starseeker | reproduction fee means you pay to copy it and you're done |
| 03:52.34 | ``Erik | and cali claiming that the law is protected under copyright and subject to license and fees |
| 03:52.44 | starseeker | ``Erik: The odds are they're going to lose that one |
| 03:52.49 | starseeker | the state I mean |
| 03:53.04 | ``Erik | yeah, ... that's what it's supposed to mean, but they CALL it reproduction fee, and have all sorts of copyright constraint on it (cuz if they called it license, they'd get in trouble) |
| 03:53.30 | starseeker | or, maybe it's more subtle - state goverments might be able to assert copyright, but the Federal government doesn't except on stuff that's had copyright assigned to it |
| 03:54.50 | starseeker | ``Erik: I think this is it: http://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/c/F3/293/293.F3d.791.99-40632.html |
| 03:55.06 | starseeker | archivist: Do they negociate for unrestricted use? |
| 03:55.13 | starseeker | rather doubts it |
| 03:55.22 | starseeker | even if they did, it'd probably cost a mint |
| 03:58.59 | starseeker | Then there's probably no point in requesting the docs - the point was to have available source materials available online as part of the documentation of (and opportunity for students to follow along with) the modeling process |
| 03:59.04 | archivist | dunno have not tried yet |
| 03:59.46 | starseeker | Even incorporate them into some hypothetical published "Modeling with BRL-CAD" book or some such |
| 04:01.01 | starseeker | wonders if he can get someone, somehow, to scan the MarkVIII and make a good point cloud... |
| 04:03.39 | starseeker | is saddened by the restritions on the UK archives |
| 04:07.09 | starseeker | archivist: Let us know how it goes when you have to deal with them |
| 04:07.11 | archivist | ah found look here http://www.kcl.ac.uk/lhcma/cats/stern/st30-01.shtml were the mil stuff is |
| 04:08.21 | archivist | ref STERN: 1/3/1 1915 Jun see burton upon trent, the real no one! |
| 04:08.52 | starseeker | awesomeness |
| 04:09.10 | archivist | thats what I have to go and look at and beg |
| 04:09.11 | starseeker | what are the usage restrictions on those records? |
| 04:09.18 | archivist | no idea |
| 04:10.05 | archivist | just know I found a few months ago on a google search, just repeated the search now |
| 04:10.18 | starseeker | that's cool |
| 04:10.55 | archivist | research takes a "while" |
| 04:11.00 | starseeker | nods |
| 04:13.03 | archivist | another guy has written up the company covering only the railway equipment, Im doing the rest and anything else car/motorbike related in Burton |
| 04:17.45 | starseeker | Sweet |
| 04:18.10 | starseeker | is getting REALLY confused now: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/legal/pdf/copyright_full.pdf |
| 04:20.45 | archivist | they may conveniantly ignore the age of the docs, as they are out of copyright |
| 04:21.09 | starseeker | These two parts are getting me: |
| 04:21.12 | starseeker | While no Crown copyright royalty fees will be levied for the use of unpublished Crown copyright material among the records, the custodians of the records remain at liberty to levy supply fees where appropriate (see section 8). |
| 04:21.34 | starseeker | 8.2 TNA Image Library supplies copies for use in publications and for commercial purposes. Permission for their reproduction must be obtained from the Image Library (see 12.2), which may charge a fee. This permission and reproduction fee are distinct from any permission which may be required from a copyright owner, who may also charge a fee. For the use of Crown copyright works see section 6; for other copyright works see section 9. |
| 04:22.04 | starseeker | Is that just for reproductions THEY make? |
| 04:22.20 | starseeker | i.e. if you go in with a camera yourself and make your own copies you're good? |
| 04:24.30 | archivist | yes but you wont get though the door with a camera in that sort of archive after moneyz |
| 04:24.56 | archivist | you go in on their terms :((( |
| 04:25.19 | archivist | nasty trick |
| 04:25.49 | archivist | so they could sue under contract not copyright |
| 04:30.44 | starseeker | ah - I see it now: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documents/photopolicy.pdf |
| 04:32.22 | starseeker | Boy they make sure to slam all the doors don't they |
| 04:33.09 | archivist | yup Lichfield archive allows that, I go in and a few hundred pics and type up at my leisure |
| 04:35.21 | archivist | I shall give the typed info back later, then they can add it to the online search for the archive |
| 04:36.09 | starseeker | OK, so they really do have the power to negociate access terms - they MIGHT conceivably allow unlimited use terms, although practically speaking they won't |
| 04:36.27 | starseeker | archivist: that's a good way to go |
| 04:36.40 | starseeker | and a powerful argument for letting people do what they want with historical data |
| 04:36.46 | archivist | :) |
| 04:36.59 | starseeker | not that the UK national archives are likely to be impressed |
| 04:37.28 | archivist | national no, but the locals are more helpful |
| 04:43.49 | archivist | escapes home as its 4:45 AM |
| 04:48.29 | Ralith | hehe |
| 04:50.41 | starseeker | ? |
| 04:50.51 | Ralith | [20:43:57] * archivist escapes home as its 4:45 AM |
| 04:50.55 | starseeker | ah :-) |
| 04:51.08 | starseeker | scowls at the National Archives UK |
| 05:13.59 | starseeker | needs to get ahold of this: http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=AD0415129 |
| 05:14.13 | starseeker | looks like I'll bug the library on Monday after all |
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| 13:26.21 | archivist | starseeker, when you get models from picture I will get interested :) |
| 14:04.41 | starseeker | sneakily wonders if the US National archives might have copies of some of the earlier british tank info as part of the workup for the Mark VIII program |
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| 14:39.55 | brlcad | yawns |
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| 16:00.17 | starseeker | brlcad: So how was the movie? |
| 16:29.36 | starseeker | Hrm. http://www.landships.freeservers.com/jpegs/newpics_05_2005/mk4_cutout.JPG |
| 16:30.34 | starseeker | Or, actually more useful dimensionally: http://www.landships.freeservers.com/jpegs/mk4_interior_plan.JPG |
| 16:47.27 | archivist | notes we had comfy bench seats long before 50's v8 yank cars :) |
| 16:49.02 | brlcad | starseeker: it was pretty good, a follow-on to the first one though so you have to watch them in order |
| 16:49.28 | brlcad | a few of the action scenes were cut a bit too quickly, but otherwise it was pretty good |
| 16:49.36 | brlcad | not as good as casino, but still goo |
| 16:49.38 | brlcad | good |
| 17:14.24 | starseeker | after a morning of stubborn hammering at the US national archives site, I think I might have found a few starting points |
| 17:14.57 | starseeker | brlcad: Any problem if I put in some extra hours tomorrow and during the week so I can run down to College Park on Friday? |
| 17:15.51 | yukonbob | morning, cadheads |
| 17:15.56 | starseeker | morning |
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| 21:44.10 | starseeker | jots notes on bugs |
| 21:46.24 | ``Erik | wow, you must have a tiny little pen |
| 21:46.48 | starseeker | the doggone suckers wiggle too |
| 21:47.18 | ``Erik | <-- still in awe at the notion of people writing on rice |
| 21:47.24 | starseeker | ``Erik: How hard would it be to get the OK to photograph the Liberty tank? |
| 21:48.05 | ``Erik | liberty tank? the spider/skeleton one, or what? |
| 21:48.18 | starseeker | no, not at the ordinance museum |
| 21:48.22 | starseeker | over behind the gate |
| 21:48.54 | ``Erik | um, anyone with a valid photo pass can take a picture of it using a gov't camera, then it's a normal form-1 |
| 21:50.12 | ``Erik | I think there're a couple people in the office and a camera in one, I'd imagine the difficult part would be finding a viable reason to exactly mark A on the form-a |
| 21:50.14 | ``Erik | form-1 |
| 21:50.25 | ``Erik | for,uh, reasons we can discuss on monday |
| 21:50.26 | ``Erik | :) |
| 21:50.53 | ``Erik | don't bother bringing your personal camera, it cannot be used |
| 21:51.00 | starseeker | I know |
| 21:51.32 | starseeker | ``Erik: does difficult ~= impossible? |
| 21:51.42 | ``Erik | I don't think so |
| 21:52.16 | ``Erik | (assuming you mean 'roughly equal to', not 'congruent' or 'set to the inverse') |
| 21:52.16 | ``Erik | :D |
| 21:52.31 | ``Erik | or a horrible perl monstrosity *shudder* |
| 21:52.46 | ``Erik | $_ ~= s/ohmygodmybrainismelting/; |
| 21:52.53 | starseeker | yes roughly equal to |
| 21:53.29 | starseeker | doesn't want to step into quicksand, but unlike the Mark IV the Liberty does have US documentation that is public domain |
| 21:53.51 | starseeker | that I can get at |
| 21:53.52 | archivist | bleh if out doors just use the google map pics |
| 21:53.55 | ``Erik | the obvious issues are going to be "why" and "how does this benefit us?" |
| 21:54.15 | ``Erik | archivist: our entire compound is insanely blurred in google maps and google earth |
| 21:54.22 | archivist | aw |
| 21:54.35 | ``Erik | the entire post, even, including the parts that are publically available and even have location pics |
| 21:54.47 | starseeker | ``Erik: Isn't that the issue with ANY form1 or are photos special? |
| 21:55.13 | ``Erik | there're 3 irl photos of the museum and the museum is still a big blur |
| 21:55.21 | starseeker | heh |
| 21:55.37 | ``Erik | um, any form-1, but we produce mountains of text, and images are sometimes used to support text... small minds, etc, ... |
| 21:56.12 | alex_joni | this one? http://www.militaryimages.net/photopost/showphoto.php/photo/24478 |
| 21:56.31 | starseeker | ``Erik: If I do what I want to with them, they WILL support text |
| 21:56.53 | ``Erik | ok, then collect the photographs and treat them as fouo for now, it's all good |
| 21:57.00 | starseeker | right |
| 21:57.09 | ``Erik | that does look like a male mark |
| 21:57.49 | ``Erik | if you have someone with a camera pass, grab the one from ed's office and go :) it may be wise to not wear baggy clothing and have your identification obvious on a lanyard |
| 21:57.50 | starseeker | that's actually why that particular tank is interesting - because I have documentation of some of the guts that I know is public domain, I can actually do a model as opposed to just a surface gloss |
| 21:58.09 | starseeker | ``Erik: right |
| 21:58.29 | starseeker | never did quite understand why that particular bad boy wasn't at the museum to begin with... |
| 21:59.13 | starseeker | would really prefer to get a point cloud too and have all three types of info on one source, but that would involve convincing Lee it's worthwhile |
| 21:59.15 | ``Erik | I'd kinda like to see our t62 model pushed for OS, or at least the pickup truck... if someone grabbed a used m35 and updated the demo model with a high def version, that'd be awesome |
| 21:59.31 | starseeker | suspects picking up the tank and moving it might be simpler... |
| 21:59.54 | ``Erik | heh, it'd probably crumble |
| 22:00.35 | ``Erik | amusingly, google image search for liberty tank pulls up a lot of images of blonde girls |
| 22:00.51 | alex_joni | heh |
| 22:00.52 | archivist | Ive seen the ones sunk in the channel (france), a LOT remains, |
| 22:01.11 | ``Erik | artifacts keep MUCH longer underwater than on land |
| 22:01.24 | ``Erik | the oxidation avenue is much slower and less UV and heat abuse |
| 22:01.25 | starseeker | Not the Liberty - that's the Mark VIII |
| 22:01.34 | starseeker | apparently they never went to combat |
| 22:01.54 | ``Erik | there're 7's and 8's listed |
| 22:01.54 | archivist | Im talking the WWII sinkers |
| 22:01.56 | starseeker | wikipedia only knows about the one here and a modified one down at Fort Meade |
| 22:01.59 | starseeker | ah |
| 22:02.26 | starseeker | yeah, lot of hardware got put into play off the french coast |
| 22:02.35 | starseeker | needs to get moving - bbl |
| 22:02.43 | ``Erik | hasta manure |
| 22:02.53 | ``Erik | or manana or something |
| 22:04.17 | archivist | they had a silly idea tanks could float into land with the addition of a skirt, rough sees did not help |
| 22:19.19 | ``Erik | heh, yes, yet amphibious armored vehicles were eventually realized :) |
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