| 00:14.00 | brlcad | PrezKennedy: what happened to osgaming.net? |
| 00:14.18 | brlcad | if you need a new home, could use one of my servers |
| 00:15.38 | PrezKennedy | if i recall, the moved the data somewhere else and i just never bothered to setup the site again |
| 00:15.52 | PrezKennedy | i really should since it was by far the most successful thing ive worked on online |
| 00:16.15 | PrezKennedy | brlcad, did you ever come up with a name for the second server? |
| 00:22.49 | brlcad | nope |
| 01:31.36 | *** join/#brlcad ibot (i=ibot@rikers.org) | |
| 01:31.36 | *** topic/#brlcad is BRL-CAD Open Source Solid Modeling || http://brlcad.org || http://sf.net/projects/brlcad || GSoC 2008 Highlight: new prototype gui, check it out! || Source Release 7.14.2 is posted (20080207) | |
| 02:34.22 | Ralith | osgaming.net? |
| 02:34.25 | Ralith | that sounds interesting |
| 02:45.26 | Axman6 | read that as orgasming.net |
| 03:43.45 | yukonbob | evening, cadheads :) |
| 03:44.27 | yukonbob | ?is there a brlcad entry for gsoc2009? |
| 05:44.08 | PrezKennedy | haha nice one Axman6 |
| 05:44.30 | Axman6 | heh, i love #brl-cad lag XD |
| 06:49.15 | brlcad | yukonbob: not yet, applications haven't opened yet |
| 06:49.42 | yukonbob | hey brlcad |
| 06:49.47 | brlcad | hey |
| 06:50.10 | yukonbob | thought they closed in start of March (but I haven't been following closely :P) |
| 06:50.26 | yukonbob | brlcad: is there an "idea sheet" for BRLCAD submission-possibilities? |
| 06:51.55 | yukonbob | brlcad: also, see my note earlier re: itcl/tcl8.6? Full intergration of itcl w/ 8.6 release! |
| 06:52.09 | yukonbob | (dunno if you already knew; I just found out yesterday) |
| 06:58.44 | brlcad | yukonbob: http://brlcad.org/~sean/ideas.html is always a good staring point |
| 06:59.07 | brlcad | the best ideas come from the students directly often |
| 06:59.08 | yukonbob | also sees applications == Mar 9-13 |
| 06:59.28 | brlcad | yes |
| 06:59.42 | yukonbob | brlcad: Are there plans for participation this year, plans to not participate, or simply no plans (yet)? |
| 06:59.59 | brlcad | the 2008 list is still relevant if we participate |
| 07:01.10 | brlcad | still not time to decide but probably applying at least, just maybe fewer slots |
| 07:01.21 | brlcad | not that it's relevant to the program |
| 07:03.08 | yukonbob | right s/participate/apply/ |
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| 10:03.49 | alex_joni | brlcad: I notice you have Adobe 3D PDF exporte on the list |
| 10:04.13 | alex_joni | basicly the things in the 3D PDF are U3D's (which are further down the list) |
| 10:05.13 | alex_joni | I managed to create U3D's with meshlab, and embed them into a pdf from latex + Movie15 package |
| 10:06.18 | alex_joni | the conversion Meshlab does is using the sample IDTF converter provided with the sample U3D library (http://sourceforge.net/projects/u3d) |
| 10:11.49 | *** join/#brlcad ibot (i=ibot@rikers.org) | |
| 10:11.49 | *** topic/#brlcad is BRL-CAD Open Source Solid Modeling || http://brlcad.org || http://sf.net/projects/brlcad || GSoC 2008 Highlight: new prototype gui, check it out! || Source Release 7.14.2 is posted (20080207) | |
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| 14:29.39 | *** topic/#brlcad is BRL-CAD Open Source Solid Modeling || http://brlcad.org || http://sf.net/projects/brlcad || GSoC 2008 Highlight: new prototype gui, check it out! || Source Release 7.14.2 is posted (20080207) | |
| 15:08.02 | brlcad | alex_joni: *nod* |
| 15:08.08 | brlcad | sounds like two birds with one stone :) |
| 15:14.29 | brlcad | from our toolchain perspective, there are a lot of integration issues that would have to be sorted out |
| 15:28.35 | brlcad | having a g-u3d and/or a g-pdf exporter, a u3d-g importer .. the g-pdf in particular would be tricky given the current 'path' involves latex+movie15 and how that could be achieved programmatically |
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| 16:45.35 | brlcad | hi samrose |
| 16:46.24 | samrose | hey brlcad |
| 16:47.08 | samrose | opensourceecology is interested in learning brlcad. ultimately, interested in extending it and making easy to use |
| 16:47.27 | samrose | any suggestions for learning brlcad? |
| 16:47.42 | samrose | some of the non-programmers are finding it extremely tough |
| 16:52.12 | *** join/#brlcad bitminer (n=bitminer@h96-60-82-113.vrnawi.dsl.dynamic.tds.net) | |
| 16:52.24 | samrose | we are going to also document our learning |
| 16:52.25 | samrose | as we go |
| 16:52.29 | samrose | on brlcad |
| 17:13.37 | brlcad | samrose: *nod* |
| 17:13.57 | brlcad | one of our biggest (specific) long-term goals is making brl-cad a lot easier to use |
| 17:14.07 | samrose | maybe I'll also make some screencasts |
| 17:15.14 | brlcad | there are lots of ways folks can help make brl-cad easier to use |
| 17:15.24 | samrose | I am trying to convince http://openfarmtech.org/index.php?title=Main_Page (open source ecology) that despite difficulty, that learning brl-cad will be worth the investment. I am creating a foundation in march, and interested in investing in developing brl-cad |
| 17:15.26 | brlcad | there is a massive documentation project under way that you could help out with |
| 17:15.48 | brlcad | that sounds fantastic |
| 17:15.57 | samrose | we will see if we can figure out a way to combine that with existing workflows |
| 17:16.09 | samrose | where id documentation project happening at? |
| 17:16.18 | brlcad | here |
| 17:16.36 | samrose | this one http://brlcad.org/ |
| 17:16.37 | samrose | ? |
| 17:16.38 | brlcad | starseeker is the lead on that effort, there are various tasks and pieces involved |
| 17:16.49 | samrose | here on IRC channel too, eh? |
| 17:17.43 | samrose | also, many emerging fablab projects could participate, if we could find a way to help them do so while they are working on what they are working on |
| 17:17.48 | brlcad | samrose: yeah, that's our main website -- the documentation I refer to is organizing and presenting existing docs better, converting docs to a revision-controllable format, and making them easier to work with in our tools and via the website |
| 17:18.01 | samrose | ah, ok |
| 17:18.43 | samrose | getting all of this stuff from pdf to wiki pages or into revision control, eh? http://brlcad.org/wiki/Documentation |
| 17:18.45 | brlcad | most of our discussions happen here on the channel or via our brlcad-devel mailing list |
| 17:18.53 | brlcad | yes |
| 17:18.55 | brlcad | and more |
| 17:19.01 | brlcad | there's a lot more documentation than that |
| 17:19.08 | brlcad | but that's more than enough to start with |
| 17:19.08 | samrose | huh |
| 17:19.54 | brlcad | the first steps are converting the docs to docbook format (an xml-based markup format for technical docs), then generating the output formats we need (web, pdf, doc, html, etc) |
| 17:20.19 | samrose | seems like a programming task, if you ask me. writing some scripts that can get data from x and put it into y with as many changes/conversions needed done during the process as possible |
| 17:20.37 | samrose | I am familari with docbook |
| 17:20.43 | samrose | familiar that is :) |
| 17:20.47 | brlcad | :) |
| 17:20.58 | brlcad | yeah, that part of it is more a programming task |
| 17:21.11 | brlcad | though the input docs are in a wide variety of formats and quantities |
| 17:21.52 | samrose | what kind of revision control are you going to put them into, if I may ask? |
| 17:21.55 | brlcad | hundreds of pages in msword-only, pdf-only, html, latex, and manual page come to mind |
| 17:22.05 | brlcad | our svn repo |
| 17:22.17 | samrose | ok |
| 17:22.37 | brlcad | much of it already is there and done |
| 17:22.48 | samrose | even though there are pages in msword, pdf, etc, there are some tools out there that can help with this |
| 17:22.48 | brlcad | it's been a project under way for quite a while |
| 17:23.01 | brlcad | yeah, and they tend to do a horrific job :) |
| 17:23.06 | samrose | hehe |
| 17:23.11 | *** join/#brlcad Dr_Phreakenstein (n=phreak@216.151.24.198) | |
| 17:23.36 | samrose | well, where do you need help these days? |
| 17:23.44 | brlcad | in any regard, that's the work -- using tools, some manual, some automated, some scripting, etc -- hundreds of pages of docs |
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| 17:24.12 | *** topic/#brlcad is BRL-CAD Open Source Solid Modeling || http://brlcad.org || http://sf.net/projects/brlcad || GSoC 2008 Highlight: new prototype gui, check it out! || Source Release 7.14.2 is posted (20080207) | |
| 17:24.12 | brlcad | there's also a variety of docs that still need to be written/rewritten |
| 17:24.27 | samrose | you should put those in your wiki, maybe? |
| 17:24.35 | brlcad | oh, absolutely |
| 17:24.39 | samrose | then again, what do I know... |
| 17:25.00 | samrose | but, I think media wiki export to docbook will be easy for you |
| 17:25.22 | brlcad | one of the things I'm trying to get working is complete bidirectional editing of the docs through the website (ideally through the wiki) and to revision control docbook on the backend |
| 17:26.22 | brlcad | unfortunately, wiki markup by itself isn't sufficient for all except the most basic layout needs |
| 17:26.28 | samrose | so, that the wiki will export saved revisions as docbook to repo, eh? |
| 17:26.54 | brlcad | yeah, that'd be the goal, so really anyone could edit a document either via checkout or via the website |
| 17:27.21 | brlcad | and not have manual sync'ing, or manual export/import/merge steps |
| 17:27.28 | samrose | hmmm... this is related to another project that I was working on, where we were trying to find ways to push wiki pages into print quality pages (ConTexT in that case) |
| 17:27.48 | brlcad | hopefully avoiding unidirectional editing |
| 17:28.15 | samrose | so, you could check an edit in to revision control, or edit a wiki page, basically |
| 17:30.14 | brlcad | basically |
| 17:30.41 | brlcad | first step was thinking to make either a drupal or mediawiki plugin that could simply display the docbook for a given page/document that would correspond to a given file |
| 17:31.00 | samrose | mediawiki plugin would probably work |
| 17:31.19 | samrose | you could write php that would sync with svn |
| 17:31.27 | samrose | and back the other way |
| 17:32.12 | brlcad | and when an edit was made, it'd go through a validation step, and get committed or scheduled for commit |
| 17:32.15 | samrose | but, you were saying that MW markup is missing formatting you need for docbook |
| 17:32.41 | brlcad | right, that's why it'd just display the docbook straight up as a first step |
| 17:32.55 | samrose | it could actually run a command line command, if everything you needed existed as commands that could be run from shell :) |
| 17:33.06 | brlcad | e.g. have one section/page that has the editable docbook, and another (read-only) that would be the rendered result |
| 17:33.25 | samrose | like a "release" page |
| 17:33.40 | samrose | so, you might use branches in svn to track that |
| 17:33.44 | samrose | or tags |
| 17:33.47 | brlcad | so hourly/nightly/manually/automatically/whatever, it would update from svn sources and rerender as needed |
| 17:33.58 | brlcad | yeah, something like that |
| 17:34.14 | samrose | the docbook idea is cool, because you could build a book as needed from pages |
| 17:34.24 | brlcad | yeah, that's part of the goal |
| 17:34.29 | brlcad | we have several books as is |
| 17:35.21 | samrose | I am working on something similar with decentalized revision control right now as package management for digital design. I know it won't work for you, but I could also |
| 17:35.32 | samrose | think about ways to sync with documentation |
| 17:35.52 | louipc | this sounds pretty awesome |
| 17:36.11 | samrose | so, we would pull brl-cad book, and could push changes in ways that you need, so that you can review and commit |
| 17:36.44 | samrose | this is built in mercurial, python, bugseverywhere, exelearning, possibly more (a small wiki engine called hatta wiki) |
| 17:36.57 | samrose | everything syncs with mercurial repo |
| 17:36.58 | brlcad | samrose: distributed vs centralized revision control wouldn't/shouldn't really affect this -- most of the work is in how to display on the site, how it's integrated as a plugin, etc |
| 17:37.30 | samrose | yeah, so anyone could edit, and there could be a plugin that would send you edits as commits in a form that you can use |
| 17:37.49 | brlcad | ideally, one could make a much more complex mediawiki plugin that uses docbook as the entire format, renders the page using docbook as an alternate wiki markup |
| 17:38.10 | brlcad | along with commit hooks on changes, of course |
| 17:38.43 | samrose | well, i think there is already a docbook conversion for MW |
| 17:38.52 | brlcad | export only |
| 17:38.54 | brlcad | one-way |
| 17:38.57 | samrose | ah |
| 17:39.28 | brlcad | and if I put docbook into an edit page, it certainly won't render it ;) |
| 17:39.56 | brlcad | barely deals with the html it supports |
| 17:40.00 | MinuteElectron | is docbook latex? |
| 17:40.19 | brlcad | MinuteElectron: no, docbook is an xml or sgml-based markup |
| 17:40.31 | samrose | I am thinking that in addition to what you suggest above, that if there is a specification for what you are looking for in commits/edits, that this could also be built into other systems |
| 17:40.35 | MinuteElectron | ok |
| 17:40.50 | brlcad | one of the toolchains effectively converts docbook into a latex format and uses latex tools to render it (for pdf, rtf, etc) |
| 17:42.54 | samrose | http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Meta:Guides/Wiki_conversions/DocBook_to_Wiki |
| 17:43.00 | samrose | perl! |
| 17:43.02 | samrose | hahaha |
| 17:43.06 | brlcad | samrose: yeah, it really should be generalizable to any project and most revision-control backends |
| 17:44.00 | samrose | so, basically you can say: "this is what we need from you in the form of edit commits" I think you are saying it needs to be docbook |
| 17:44.06 | brlcad | yeah, I've seen what they did -- sort of a similar idea, but I think that's a flop on execution |
| 17:44.23 | samrose | heh, that was just a quick google search |
| 17:44.28 | brlcad | it shouldn't just dumb down docbook to mediawiki markup if you want bidirectional |
| 17:44.37 | samrose | I see |
| 17:46.17 | brlcad | requiring editors to understand basic docbook is a reasonable first-step compromise |
| 17:46.32 | brlcad | even our non-technically inclined editors have been able to use it |
| 17:46.40 | samrose | yeah. or it may be worth making a really good conversion system |
| 17:46.53 | samrose | well, that is true |
| 17:47.11 | brlcad | just requires a simple tutorial, existing examples |
| 17:47.29 | brlcad | not really any more complicated than wikitext markup, just more verbose |
| 17:47.35 | brlcad | and more expressive/formalized |
| 17:47.42 | samrose | yeah, I think most could handle it |
| 17:48.06 | brlcad | there's even a wiki based on docbook, but I think mediawiki does a much better job really |
| 17:48.57 | samrose | yeah. hmmm... I wonder how quickly the DTD of docbook could be programmatically mapped. |
| 17:49.18 | samrose | (just thinking out loud) |
| 17:50.39 | samrose | like this python script could work, it just needs to be more complete: http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Meta:Guides/Wiki_conversions/DocBook_to_Wiki |
| 17:53.09 | samrose | I am just thinking about how to get people who are already doing flex fab projects to 1. use brlcad 2. be able to quickly jump into documentation as they go |
| 17:53.46 | samrose | I think we can do it over the next year or so |
| 17:53.53 | brlcad | what are the needs? |
| 17:53.58 | samrose | over time, get more people doing 1, and 2 |
| 17:54.00 | brlcad | what do you need a CAD system to do? |
| 17:54.41 | samrose | people need solid geo modeling to document designs, so that others can collaborate on designs with them |
| 17:54.44 | samrose | for one thing |
| 17:55.07 | brlcad | to document the design in what manner? |
| 17:55.24 | samrose | geometric dimensions |
| 17:55.59 | samrose | many designs that are intended to be executed by cnc machinery |
| 17:56.39 | samrose | perhaps CAD is not needed in every case, but there is clearly a demand |
| 17:56.52 | brlcad | the latter is closer to doable now than the prior with where things currently stand |
| 17:57.22 | samrose | you mean with brlcad in general? |
| 17:57.33 | brlcad | there's a lot of work that has to go into our toolset before we can have automatic dimensioning for things like generating drawings and other drafting docs |
| 17:57.39 | brlcad | yeah, in general |
| 17:58.00 | samrose | Well, automatic dimensioning is actually not a requisite |
| 17:58.14 | samrose | just *some* usuable 3D FLOSS CAD software |
| 17:58.16 | samrose | :) |
| 17:58.25 | samrose | and, the knowledge of how to use it |
| 17:58.26 | bitminer | Is meida wiki being used currently? If so where is the search bar? Online wiki editor for Doc Book http://code.google.com/p/owed/ |
| 17:58.41 | samrose | OSE uses media wiki |
| 17:58.47 | brlcad | well we're by far the best and most developed 3d f/oss cad software :) |
| 17:58.59 | samrose | yeah, that is the conclusion I came to |
| 17:59.18 | brlcad | bitminer: interesting, i've not seen that project |
| 17:59.31 | bitminer | Just using some google foo |
| 17:59.57 | brlcad | samrose: our biggest failing atm is gui usability -- the learning curve on mged (our main editor) is very steep |
| 18:00.13 | bitminer | Sorry to return to doc book in this conversation, but thought you could use the info |
| 18:00.43 | brlcad | "This project is abandoned" |
| 18:01.04 | samrose | could be worth doing an autopsy on, though |
| 18:01.17 | samrose | mged was the objection that lots of people raised to me |
| 18:01.24 | samrose | so I am trying to convince them to learn it |
| 18:01.57 | samrose | but, then, I am also thinking about how users could drive evolution at the same time. |
| 18:02.32 | bitminer | I have needed (docbook) wiki in the past, never obatained it though. Likey a project in and of itself. |
| 18:02.42 | samrose | I think I could get funds to hel towards gui interface design, but I want to work both with brlcad and people in the field |
| 18:02.44 | brlcad | bitminer: more I read it, looks like they never finished and it's not a mediawiki plugin but a new wiki? |
| 18:03.06 | bitminer | As for using mged and UI. Yes it is steep, but so too was learning Unigraphics. |
| 18:03.19 | bitminer | With all the gui bells and whistles |
| 18:03.30 | samrose | anyway, I think I can convince people to use mged now |
| 18:04.06 | samrose | I did not realize that your existing documents are in svn so that alone really helps |
| 18:04.35 | bitminer | I though I saw doc book in trunk? Yes ... checking... |
| 18:05.01 | samrose | thanks brlcad bitminer. I'll talk to you later |
| 18:05.42 | brlcad | samrose: if it's any consolation, the expert brl-cad modelers are usually more efficient in mged than they are in other commercial cad systems |
| 18:05.51 | brlcad | it just took a while for them to get to that level of proficiency |
| 18:06.36 | brlcad | bitminer: yes, doc/docbook has most of the docs that have already been converted |
| 18:06.56 | bitminer | What I thought from snooping arround. Just getting started though. |
| 18:07.16 | brlcad | there are still hundreds of 'pages' of docs, and hundreds of files, that still have to be converted |
| 18:07.48 | brlcad | e.g., there are more than 400 tools in brl-cad -- there is a manual page for nearly all of them that needs to be converted |
| 18:07.57 | brlcad | fortunately, that's a good one for automatic conversion |
| 18:08.05 | bitminer | I know that doing this progrmatically, being programmers is encticing, but how hard would it be to do it ... mmm... huh... manually. |
| 18:08.39 | brlcad | similarly, though, there are 300+ different mged commands which is all over the place |
| 18:09.00 | brlcad | bitminer: a lot of it is being done manually |
| 18:09.08 | brlcad | it's just really tedious too :) |
| 18:09.30 | bitminer | So what would be target for auto convert and what would need to be done manualy? |
| 18:11.25 | brlcad | bitminer: target is having docbook files instead of troff manpage format files :) |
| 18:14.01 | brlcad | the html docs and msword docs tend to require a lot more manual effort |
| 19:12.20 | yukonbob | morning, cadheads |
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| 21:06.16 | starseeker | about autoconverting docs - the existing man pages have been run through an autoconversion process that produces "close" to correct output. The MGED commands, which are the current focus due to their being "user visible" in the MGED environment itself, typically do not have man pages to start with. Those are being hand converted, using the Volume II appendix as a starting point and a docbook template into which the information is inserted |
| 21:06.58 | starseeker | However, just getting the documentation into docbook is only the first step, although probably the most tedious one |
| 21:07.51 | starseeker | virtually all the documentation we have besides the chapters in the Volume II and III books needs to be carefully checked to make sure they are still current, correct and clear |
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| 21:47.16 | CIA-40 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r33923 10/brlcad/trunk/ (TODO src/mged/cmd.c): make sure all of the view commands have the view to work with. this should remove the 'A view does not exist' messages from the GED view check. |
| 23:12.17 | CIA-40 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r33924 10/brlcad/trunk/include/vmath.h: drop the signbit on zeros during INTCLAMP so we don't print '-0'. achieve this via simple (double)(long) cast. should be just a minor cosmetic change. |
| 23:14.38 | brlcad | starseeker: another thought came to mind about the tcl upgrade -- did you apply bob's 2x command length patch? |
| 23:19.20 | starseeker | I believe I did |
| 23:19.38 | starseeker | I think that was one of two I had applied at the outset - it should say in the commit message |
| 23:23.45 | brlcad | okay, cool |
| 23:24.15 | starseeker | still hasn't had time to work on blt yet - the one naive attempt to put latest cvs blt into the brlcad tree resulted in a compile error |
| 23:24.31 | brlcad | they were working on our patch reviewing it |
| 23:24.44 | starseeker | hmm. when was that? |
| 23:24.51 | brlcad | couple days ago |
| 23:24.58 | starseeker | ah, cool :-) |
| 23:25.27 | starseeker | half agrees with Bob that we might want to revert Tcl/Tk upgrade til after the release - Archer will at least work on some platforms that way |
| 23:25.45 | starseeker | is probably the only one with the X/Tk conflict |
| 23:27.18 | CIA-40 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r33925 10/brlcad/trunk/autogen.sh: another tweak from sebastian pipping, adds support for the old automake libtool macro, AM_PROG_LIBTOOL. |