IRC log for #brlcad on 20090318

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00:00.09 Ralith a model of one of those would be pretty neat too.
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02:13.08 dreeves I sent the patch to you brlcad I will work on pushing it to sf but I was having problems so decided to be lazy for now
02:13.18 dreeves and send it directly to you
02:23.27 dreeves ok got it submitted to sourceforge
02:34.35 brlcad nice, just saw it
02:35.09 brlcad didn't get anything direct though (at least not yet
02:35.29 brlcad but no matter, I see the tracker
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03:02.40 starseeker <snort> they're already offering discounts to try and get people to come to SIGGRAPH 2009
03:03.11 starseeker <sarcasm>wonder if perhaps they're worried about the economy...</sarcasm>
03:13.54 dreeves Sorry about that I guess I should have spent a little more effort figuring it out
03:13.55 bjorkintosh are SIGGRAPH papers any good?
03:15.22 dreeves there is still room for improvement on the performance. Actually lost 15% somewhere on the end maybe something for later...
03:16.49 dreeves probably move on to the NURBS stuff I suppose...although I think that is quite abit more involved.
03:22.53 starseeker bjorkintosh: yesh
03:22.55 starseeker er yes
03:23.25 starseeker all conferences will have ups and downs in paper quality, but SIGGRAPH has lots of very good papers
03:34.08 bjorkintosh really?
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07:21.29 madant slept for 15 hours straight :O
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10:00.17 madant howdy mafm
10:55.36 d-lo Morning all.
10:55.56 d-lo Bad traffic + thick fog = scary drive :/
10:59.53 madant does not have a driving license :P
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11:08.02 d-lo Hrm, lemme think: Bad traffic + thick fog + no license = even scarier!!!
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11:28.52 madant d-lo: :P true
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11:35.46 mafm_ hi
11:40.14 madant hey :)
11:41.30 madant freaky way to do pull-ups :p http://www.crossfit.com/mt-archive2/Queens-Palace-Pullup.html
11:42.44 d-lo Just goes to show how well proper incentive can motivate!
11:45.26 d-lo This one looks strangely familiar...... http://www.crossfit.com/mt-archive2/crossfit-AnzioAnnie.html ;)
11:47.04 brlcad it'd be a lot more impressive if he was doing them off the barrel tip :)
11:47.44 d-lo True, but with photoshot, anything is possible! :)
11:47.46 brlcad thick fog + rowing = eerie cool row :)
11:48.01 d-lo Yeah, i was wonding about that on the drive in :)
11:48.18 brlcad fortunately not all the crews have started so the traffic was pretty low
11:48.26 madant :D
11:48.42 d-lo nice. Do you compete or is it just for the halibut?
11:48.45 brlcad it can get very scary
11:48.58 brlcad I compete
11:49.13 brlcad do ocd and competitive to just paddle about
11:50.24 madant has a backwater district nearby :)
11:50.31 d-lo On a somewhat related note, i found out that my Patriot can corner VERY well :) 90 degree curve came up on me a bit suddenly and I had to take it a bit faster than I wanted :) Stiff suspension FTW.
11:50.49 d-lo "every thing I know about performance driving I learned from Top Gear" :)
11:51.14 brlcad is starving
11:51.36 brlcad madant: those look like fun pull-ups actually
11:51.56 brlcad I can see doing that
11:52.24 madant yeah i mean height really doesnt matter ;) but a nice pic nevertheless :)
11:53.01 madant I can do 20 .. ok 19 :P
11:53.27 madant though not confident about 20 at that height :)
11:54.04 brlcad hehe, nice .. http://www.torch.aetc.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/061228-F-1936B-010.JPG
11:54.55 d-lo lol\
11:55.36 d-lo brlcad: If you can get to see the most recent Top Gear (the one where the road test the Ford Fiesta) then you really REALY should.
11:56.09 d-lo I laughed my throat raw. That Humvee pic reminded me of it btw :)
11:57.18 madant yikes.. :)
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12:18.41 CIA-40 BRL-CAD: 03indianlarry * r34055 10/brlcad/trunk/src/other/step/src/ (4 files in 4 dirs): Added standard C++ library via LIBSTDCXX variable to build where needed.
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14:53.27 brlcad madant: woot, top 20 :)
14:54.33 madant huh /
14:56.15 brlcad https://www.ohloh.net/p/brlcad/contributors
14:57.42 madant :) aah.. it is going to get better ;)
14:58.25 madant am sure i would have been way lower if they didn't only count number of commits :D
14:59.55 brlcad I've been wanting to do some mega visualization at some point
15:02.06 madant mega visualization ;) ?
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15:27.36 dreeves how does the stuff work we submit as a patch? Does it get included in the next release or is somewhat unknown because someone needs to make time to look it over?
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15:36.41 madant dreeves: depends on the type of patch i guess.. mostly it gets added to the trunk pretty fast once someone has a look at it .. some need a lot of regression tests and might take longer.. if the person submitting the patch has been given commit access then he is given the right to close the patch tracker as well.. brlcad would obviously be able to clarify all this better :)
15:46.49 dreeves no big I was just curious if there was a formal process or if it was just somewhat loose. I think what I submitted is fairly low priority because I would guess not many people are using that feature. Also it is just a performance improvement.
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16:00.35 brlcad madant, yeah visualization kinda like the code storm, but actually somewhat more practical :)
16:01.30 brlcad dreeves: the latter, one of the existing devs takes the time to review and test/evaluate the patch
16:04.33 brlcad yeah, basically what madant said -- it's not at all a formalized process very much intentionally
16:06.47 brlcad highly formalization in open source projects is often a sign of a dying project, most operate under meritocratic and high-iteration agile practices (or at least gravitate towards them)
16:07.29 dreeves Yeah I'm not a big fan of very formalized process at all
16:07.49 dreeves good way to bring a project to it's knees
16:07.52 brlcad that said, yeah, your patch isn't what I'd call "high-priority" but it's actually very important because it's from a new contributor :)
16:08.06 dreeves :)
16:08.37 brlcad and it's not just a performance improvement, it's a _substantial_ performance improvement
16:08.40 brlcad :)
16:09.25 dreeves I think there is still room for more improvement but I want to get on to the high priority stuff I really just did that get warmed up
16:10.31 dreeves I didn't want to start with something where I was trying to get familiar with what was what at the same time as tackling a tough problem i.e. NURBS
16:10.52 brlcad nods
16:11.53 madant brlcad: hmm.. yeah it would be fun .. information visualization is always nice
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16:30.31 brlcad dammit, sf.net is down right as I submit
16:30.50 brlcad ~ping sourceforge.net
16:30.51 ibot pong sourceforge.net
16:34.30 brlcad there we go
16:35.29 d-lo <PROTECTED>
16:35.30 ibot pong sourceforge.net
16:35.44 d-lo ~google
16:35.45 ibot hmm... google is at http://www.yahoo.com
16:35.55 brlcad ~d-lo is a BRL-CAD developer
16:35.56 ibot brlcad: okay
16:36.05 brlcad ~d-lo
16:36.06 ibot hmm... d-lo is a BRL-CAD developer
16:38.19 dreeves didn't mean to include that other stuff I forgot about messing around that
16:41.52 dreeves actually only 3 files should have been in there
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16:47.00 brlcad dreeves: I know, it was obvious
16:47.00 brlcad i wouldn't have even mentioned it save for the other issues
16:47.00 brlcad all minor, but patch acceptance generally puts it in the submitter's hands to fix it so the issues are resolved earlier instead of later
16:47.01 brlcad (as the goal is to give commit)
16:49.06 dreeves absolutely yeah don't let me slide on anything I want comply no problem
16:49.35 starseeker A bat hanging on to the space shuttle as it launches... awesome :-)
16:49.43 dreeves I tried to follow the style but obviously hasn't been the style I have been follow as of late so habits and such
16:50.26 dreeves So do I just re attach a new patch or is it a new submit altogether
16:51.08 dreeves btw it is only 3 files
16:53.13 d-lo Hrm, if a small peice of foam can cause a catastrophic loss of the orbiter.... i wonder what fate that bat has condemned them to? :/
16:54.41 dreeves I'm sure the "small" piece of foam was considerably larger than the bat
16:55.45 dreeves was the brace style the only thing you noticed when reviewing the code?
16:55.47 starseeker yeah, no one is worried that the bat will cause launcher damage
16:56.35 starseeker wonders if there is a bat version of the Darwin award...
16:56.51 dreeves However I pretty sure the bat didn't make it
16:57.08 d-lo Dunno, sounds like the basis for Samuel Jacksons next movie: Bats on a Shuttle...
16:59.13 brlcad dreeves: not a problem .. there are probably four distinct styles throughout the brl-cad sources -- just try to police new code and hit up files for consistency as they are worked on
16:59.39 brlcad most of the files have issues, it'd takes many weeks of tedium to hit up everything (it can only partially be automated)
17:00.13 dreeves ok no problem
17:00.14 brlcad dreeves: braces was the only stylistic thing I noticed that mattered
17:01.08 brlcad the other stylistic changes are not worth policing unless someone specifically wants to go on a rampage
17:01.41 dreeves I was trying to follow the correct style but in my day job I use the other style so I will need to get the settings in my editor so I don't forget
17:01.42 brlcad or is just egregiously annoying like spaces before commas
17:01.50 brlcad nods
17:01.56 brlcad I use the other style on a few other projects
17:02.04 dreeves hey the 30 setting that should should have been 64
17:02.05 brlcad some people have religion on one vs the other
17:02.20 brlcad to me, it's just more important that the code is consistent
17:02.46 dreeves Yeah I'm not religious on that kind of stuff would rather spend my energy on more useful things
17:02.54 brlcad minimally per-file consistent, ideally globally consistent (sans src/other)
17:02.56 dreeves yes I agree
17:03.54 dreeves that setting was in the bezier_2d_isect.c before but if I'm to pre allocate the buffers then the setting needs to come from extude.c
17:05.48 dreeves I tried to think of a way to get rid of it all together but at the time I was tired (no sleep in 30+ hours) and I couldn't think of anything. So I gave in a moved the setting to extude.c and passed into bezier_2d_isect.c
17:07.02 dreeves I was just messing around and wanted to see what it would like like if I changed the setting to 30 vs 64. Didn't make much of an impact on either. I'm sure it would with a more complex shape
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17:15.02 brlcad yeah, it sounds like the maximum number of intersects through the sketch
17:15.11 brlcad just at a quick glance
17:15.22 brlcad if that's true, even 64 is kinda sketchy (no pun intended)
17:15.41 brlcad some simple grided sketch would blow out the limit
17:19.33 dreeves no i don't think that is what that number is
17:20.20 dreeves I think that is the number of times to subdivide the curve in order to resolve down to a single segment of the curve to find the particular intersection
17:26.09 *** join/#brlcad madant (n=madant@117.196.144.14)
17:26.10 brlcad ah, hm
17:26.33 brlcad then that sounds particularly asinine
17:26.52 brlcad especially if it has a ton of control points
17:27.08 brlcad unless that's between each pair of control points
17:28.19 brlcad probably should be based adaptive based on the amount of curvature in a given piecewise region
17:30.12 dreeves yeah checks the curvature
17:31.01 dreeves it tries to subdivide to get down to little or no curvature but at some point it stops which the maxlevel setting
17:33.18 dreeves let me restate
17:34.53 brlcad aha.. so then after a given minimized curvature, it then performs MAXDEPTH samples of that piece
17:34.57 brlcad that's not so bad then
17:35.11 brlcad probably even overkill depending on that curvature setting
17:35.36 dreeves exactly that is why I was playing around with the number a little
17:36.09 dreeves no I misspoke
17:36.19 dreeves I was saying exactly to the overkill part
17:36.40 dreeves but the algorithm doesn't exactly work that way
17:38.06 dreeves it divides the control polygon down to attempt to consider a single segment of the polygon but it also looks at curvature to make sure it is only considering a case where the ray will only cross that segment once
17:38.40 dreeves if the curvature is not "flat" enough it will continue to subdivide
17:40.26 dreeves however it gives on continuing to subdivide if it reaches the max subdivides
17:41.30 dreeves the is actually no limit on how far it will subdivide
17:41.56 dreeves it only consider the depth after it has gotten to a single segment of the control polygon
17:42.42 dreeves I can imagine some situations that could cause it problems but I think they are pretty extreme
17:44.43 dreeves If I right I think control polygons 2 to 32nd power is where you will see the algorithm start to have problems. Well maybe a few powers lower but in that area
17:45.43 dreeves no actually 64th power
17:53.33 dreeves Hope what I wrote makes since here reading backup I realize I'm dropping words...
17:54.16 dreeves Of course I could be completely off track but that is what I think is going on
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18:24.04 brlcad dreeves: you could toss in a zero-tolerance check on the polygon points -- if they're all within computation tolerance, halt
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19:09.54 CIA-40 BRL-CAD: 03bob1961 * r34056 10/brlcad/trunk/src/librt/shoot.c: Modified rt_res_pieces_clean() to skip uninitialized rt_piecestate structures.
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20:09.27 dreeves brlcad had to go to the office after my comments so I didn't see what you wrote a response if anything
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20:31.06 kanzure considers working on a project listed on http://brlcad.org/wiki/Google_Summer_of_Code/2009/Project_Ideas
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21:03.04 brlcad ah, dreeves left
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21:03.07 brlcad kanzure: glad to hear it!
21:06.29 kanzure brlcad: Should I just submit a project proposal, or how does this work?
21:10.57 madant congrats :)
21:19.51 madant hmm.. and they have changed the timeline as brlcad predicted :D
21:21.33 brlcad kanzure: discussion
21:22.19 brlcad what do you want to work on? why? who are you? (the 2cent gist version) why do you want to work on brl-cad, what are your goals, etc
21:22.34 brlcad madant: :)
21:25.08 madant next 10 days are going to be fun on the channel and mailing list :)
21:29.18 madant brlcad: gsoc blog says "larger student peer groups in each project" ;)
21:41.43 kanzure hm, it's entirely possible that you guys don't remember me :)
21:41.46 kanzure http://heybryan.org/om.html
21:42.06 kanzure http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/gears/gears.html
21:42.43 kanzure interchangeable/intercompatible parts and automatic instruction generators, researcher here at the Automated Design Lab at UT Austin :-)
21:43.45 kanzure so in particular I'd probably end up working on the parametric library or web thingy for design repository, in particular my background has been in open source hardware design packaging (much like "dot deb" and "dot rpm" files except, uh, for hardware)
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21:47.36 kanzure some stuff I've recently been doing (sadly, it's not with BRLCAD): http://heybryan.org/books/Manufacturing/pythonocc/2009-03-15_3.png
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21:51.47 brlcad oh yeah, I guess I didn't announce it here yet :)
21:51.51 brlcad we made it into gsoc 2009
21:52.11 brlcad hurrahs
21:52.35 kanzure http://heybryan.org/bioreactor/membraneless_filtration/2009-03-18_spiral.jpg (warning: face)
21:52.43 kanzure brlcad: remember my work on spirals?
21:52.45 kanzure :)
21:52.51 kanzure now this just needs to be tested in real life.
21:53.02 brlcad <PROTECTED>
21:53.13 kanzure DNS-wise?
21:53.30 brlcad hah, yes
21:53.35 brlcad resolves to 127.0.0.1
21:53.47 _sushi_ resolves to 127.0.0.1 too
21:54.02 kanzure http://66.112.232.182/bioreactor/membraneless_filtration/2009-03-18_spiral.jpg (warning: face)
21:54.05 kanzure try that?
21:54.24 brlcad kanzure: and to answer your question, I did remember the name, just not the connection
21:54.29 kanzure okay
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21:56.31 brlcad madant: hm, that's actually an interesting quote on the blog .. have to talk to lh about it
21:57.52 brlcad bz's going to test almost the exact opposite mentoring-wise as our experience indicated that we needed fewer students in order to better engage them
21:58.03 madant kanzure: what does pythonocc do ?
21:58.04 brlcad probably just that there's a sweet spot that orgs have to find
21:58.08 kanzure do mentoring organizations have a minimum team size?
21:58.16 brlcad nope
21:58.17 kanzure madant: pythonOCC == python bindings to OpenCASCADE
21:58.20 kanzure http://pythonocc.org/
21:58.24 madant ah.. :)
21:58.32 kanzure so I was just putting together pythonOCC + the HeeksCAD interface together
21:58.35 kanzure since they both use wxWidgets
21:59.43 madant k.. opencascade is pretty neat ;)
22:00.03 kanzure but the API *sucks*. I mean, coming from the perspective of trying to figure out how to write a simpler wrapper for it, or something, it's just huge and hairy
22:00.12 brlcad thinks they still fail the freeness test
22:00.26 brlcad open yes, just not free
22:00.33 archivist kanzure, author of HeeksCAD often is in #cam
22:00.42 kanzure archivist: thank you for the heads up
22:01.06 madant freeness maybe :) but not many CAE tools in open source scene otherwise right ?
22:01.08 kanzure brlcad: apparently they are changing their licensing actually
22:01.35 brlcad they've said that for a couple years
22:01.39 kanzure oh :(
22:01.58 brlcad and they did tweak it once about two years ago, as it was originally entirely ambiguous
22:02.35 madant they had BRL-CAD in one of their CDs or something if i remember correctly ?
22:02.45 brlcad did they?
22:02.48 brlcad that'd surprise me
22:02.50 kanzure why?
22:02.56 kanzure I mean, why would they put it on?
22:02.58 brlcad or at least be news to me
22:03.21 madant let me see :)
22:03.27 kanzure we were hoping that pythonocc would make it into gsoc, but that didn't happen this year
22:03.37 kanzure but brlcad is a good alternative, heh
22:03.47 brlcad I'm all for competition and collaboration, but that project has just smelled bad from the beginning
22:05.12 brlcad seemed more of a failed commercial attempt that was dumped onto a website with an "Open" label slapped onto it in order to try to attract some business, then when that didn't work, they kept tweaking the license to try to actually open it up "just enough" to get some revenue through providing commercial API support
22:05.13 madant ah maybe it was the CAELinux dvd :)
22:05.21 kanzure the giant DVD library? :)
22:06.01 kanzure ah, what I think I meant to say was that OpenCASCADE recently became "open" and "free" enough to warrant debian packaging and inclusion into the main repositories
22:06.05 brlcad i could be completely wrong in that perception, but i was pretty excited to try and join our geometry engines several years back only to be sorely disappointed on many fronts
22:06.09 kanzure (6.3.0 hit the repositories last week)
22:06.27 kanzure brlcad: can you describe what happened on that front in particular?
22:07.58 brlcad kanzure: well part of what I just mentioned, that their entire intentions haven't felt like they're with any actual regard or interest with F/OSS development of CAD
22:08.02 madant hmmm opencascade in debian and not in non-free ? i remember somebody was trying to package salome and opencascade a year ago..
22:08.34 kanzure things that sound interesting: 1.3, 1.7, 1.10, 2.8 (from the wiki page)
22:08.38 brlcad doing only the minimum they can get away with to conjure up business, not being open to the community at large
22:08.47 kanzure brlcad: no, I mean the joining of the geometry engines :)
22:08.54 kanzure sorry for the ambiguity
22:08.59 brlcad I mean that too
22:09.13 kanzure oh
22:09.15 brlcad there's no technical discussion to be had if there are legal issues and project management issues
22:09.28 kanzure were their headers weird or something?
22:09.29 kanzure ah, I see.
22:09.40 madant brlcad: news coming up at main page ;) ?
22:10.17 brlcad their license originally was completely proprietary iirc, the only thing "open" about them was that you could get the source code (but you couldn't redistribute) and they had the word "Open" in their name
22:10.29 brlcad madant: mailing list first, but yeah
22:10.33 brlcad probably later today
22:11.11 kanzure where is the brlcad-devel mailing list located? is it on the sf.net server?
22:11.17 brlcad yes, sf
22:11.58 kanzure http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/brlcad-devel
22:11.59 kanzure aha
22:13.58 louipc heh opennurbs seems kind of closed when it comes to the community too
22:14.07 Ralith yay, gsoc!
22:15.04 madant hey Ralith, howdy
22:15.14 Ralith hullo
22:15.31 kanzure louipc: isn't that the blender module?
22:16.01 Ralith so I know we've got plenty of engs in here
22:16.08 Ralith anyone have any thoughts on the hp50g calculator?
22:16.42 kanzure huh, you guys were solving constraint satisfaction problems with graphs
22:16.44 Ralith I discovered my ti-89's not talking with my computer anymore.
22:16.47 madant has never used a graphing calculator :D
22:16.57 kanzure has done some work on graph grammars for graph-based design automation.
22:17.08 kanzure http://brlcad.org/wiki/Libpg_:_A_parametrics/constraint_library
22:17.12 louipc kanzure: no that's the rhino 3d nurbs library
22:17.14 louipc http://www.opennurbs.org/
22:17.31 madant kanzure: graphs .. well my initial idea was that bgl would be useful.. but now i think maybe not..
22:17.44 kanzure bgl?
22:18.03 madant boost graph library
22:18.10 kanzure so, our lab uses software called "GraphSynth"
22:18.17 kanzure it's a graph grammar solver for engineering problems, more or less
22:18.28 madant boost's hypergraph support the last time i checked was not that great..
22:18.29 kanzure one student is doing gear-based automated design and optimization, another is doing linkages, and another is doing product disassembly
22:18.41 louipc kanzure: brl-cad requires opennurbs
22:18.45 kanzure so it might be interesting to integrate the graph functionality into libpg
22:19.15 madant kanzure: what exactly do u mean by graph functionality ?
22:19.19 archivist hmm gears
22:19.31 kanzure archivist: did you see the link?
22:19.49 kanzure http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/gears/gears.html
22:20.10 kanzure madant: I mean the graphsynth classes for the representation of graphs, generating thousands of solutions for a given graph, and so on
22:20.37 kanzure (just the other day we were generating a thousand 'design solutions' from a given 'specification graph' (these aren't the actual terribly convoluted names they have, but that's what they are))
22:20.51 madant :)
22:21.06 madant just checking out the graphsynth page
22:21.45 kanzure think of it as a search-and-replace system that goes through the entire tree of possible substitutions given a set of 'replace rules' (a "rule set")
22:22.02 louipc those are some funky gears
22:22.07 kanzure it's a hack to glxgears :)
22:22.29 *** join/#brlcad Dr_Phreakenstein (n=phreak@216.151.24.198)
22:22.43 kanzure I was going to write a gear visualizer/CAD-generator with pythonocc
22:22.49 Ralith there's a cool xscreensaver module that generates very (infinitely?) long serieses of properly interlocking gears
22:22.54 kanzure but I haven't got around to that yet
22:23.00 madant hmm. and the design is effectively a 'configuration' expressed in XML ?
22:23.02 kanzure Ralith: oh? I've never seen that, is that in the standard X11 package?
22:23.05 kanzure madant: yes
22:23.08 Ralith no idea
22:23.13 Ralith it might not even be on my system
22:23.21 archivist glxgears
22:23.23 kanzure Ralith: ah, maybe it's in the xscreensaver package (sorry, didn't read)
22:23.24 Ralith I always set my screensavers to random, so I can't help beyond that
22:23.29 kanzure glxgears doesn't do interlocking of infinitely many gears
22:23.35 Ralith might even haev only been in the freebsd distrib
22:23.42 Ralith yeah this is much more advanced than glxgears
22:23.46 Ralith nicer looking models, too
22:23.49 kanzure anyway, it sucks because it's not actual CAD
22:23.55 kanzure it's just a cylinder and some OpenGL calls
22:24.03 kanzure kinda useless for lab research :)
22:24.12 Ralith I wouldn't think parametric gears would be very hard
22:24.17 kanzure not at all
22:24.17 madant kanzure: does graphsynth support hypergraphs ?
22:24.31 kanzure madant: please excuse me, I'm not as well versed in hypergraphs as I should be
22:24.36 madant nods
22:24.38 kanzure is this where there are vertices with multiple edges?
22:24.45 Ralith hm
22:24.55 Ralith brlcad: does BRL-CAD have any sort of geargen tool?
22:25.05 bjorkintosh geargen? gear generator?
22:25.07 Ralith yeah
22:25.08 kanzure yes
22:25.13 kanzure madant: is that what a hypergraph is?
22:25.14 Ralith okay, cool
22:25.23 kanzure Ralith: no, I wasn't answering you
22:25.26 Ralith oh
22:25.45 Ralith I ask because we've got weird things like tire generators and fence generators but I don't recall ever seeing a gear generator
22:25.45 madant kanzure: the hypergraph idea is basically that you can have edges between edges..
22:25.58 bjorkintosh fence generator?
22:26.00 bjorkintosh whoa!
22:26.03 Ralith chain link fence
22:26.07 bjorkintosh is in white picket ...
22:26.08 bjorkintosh oh okay.
22:26.13 kanzure madant: blah? wha?
22:26.13 bjorkintosh *as in.
22:26.46 kanzure madant: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypergraph
22:26.48 kanzure "In mathematics, a hypergraph is a generalization of a graph, where edges can connect any number of vertices. "
22:26.52 kanzure in which case, yes
22:29.19 louipc hmm! those generators used to be prefixed with mk_
22:29.32 louipc now I don't know what the generators are blah
22:29.48 kanzure just grep over the source for 'gear' :-)
22:29.53 kanzure grep -H -I -R "gear" *
22:30.05 madant kanzure: if you consider a constraint network.. it eventually has lets say a set of nodes( variables) and constraints( edges between two or moredependent variables) but constraints might depend on other constraints as well.. so you have hyperedges connecting two or more edges which can effectively be broken down into edges between many vertices..
22:30.31 kanzure I see
22:30.56 Ralith kanzure: hehe
22:30.59 louipc kanzure: that's not very efficient, and doesn't help those who only installed the binary
22:31.06 madant consider a constraint which depends on two other constraints for instance ..
22:31.11 kanzure madant: right
22:31.27 madant so graphsynth supports hypergraphs ?
22:32.47 kanzure the answer is complicated. yes in the sense that the constraint network can be represented, no in the sense that the way that you solve it is not by treating it as a hypergraph
22:32.50 kanzure I don't know if that makes sense
22:33.19 kanzure see, when a constraint network would be added into graphsynth, the "rules" would be called forth to solve a particular subset of the graph
22:33.32 kanzure then it would be possible, say, to find the next part of the constraint network needs to be updated
22:33.36 kanzure dependent on the last modification that was made
22:33.53 kanzure which is essentially solving the same thing, no?
22:34.20 madant looking at the grammar..
22:34.35 kanzure well that's the thing, the grammars are hand-crafted
22:34.51 kanzure like I said, one researcher has made a grammar for gear generation, another for linkages (or is working on it), another for product disassembly
22:35.22 kanzure (and there's a few others- one for how to tie a tie, electronics (filter circuits), and stuff I'm forgetting)
22:35.42 madant kanzure: i meant the basic designGraph class
22:36.29 madant what are the node classes ?
22:36.48 kanzure vertices.
22:36.58 kanzure what are you asking? the name of the node class is 'node' IIRC
22:37.14 madant i mean they directly correlate with the variables right ?
22:37.48 kanzure uhrm, sort of. each node has a list of labels, and it's possible for a node to only have one label, so in this case that label might be a variable related to the constraint expression, yeah
22:38.11 louipc starseeker: should src/libged/tire.c be removed since it's already in src/shapes/tire.c?
22:38.59 madant ah.. so designGraph is basically an implementation of a directed graph right ? but hypergraphs are not effectively reducible to directed graphs
22:39.27 kanzure directed means that edges point in a certain direction
22:39.33 kanzure but in this case, edges are bidirectional
22:39.51 kanzure I mean, each node has a list of the edges that are connected to it
22:40.32 brlcad oof, turn my head for just a few minutes..
22:40.45 madant :D
22:43.17 brlcad louipc: mcneal & assoc. were very upfront from the very beginning that there was no support, no community, and a simple PD license, and open about the fact that their intent was more converters and that they have no intention of helping folks use it for analytic or modeling purposes .. big difference in intent and flexibility
22:43.58 madant kanzure: consider this hypergraph ( vertices : A,B,C,D,E,F Edges/Constraints: A perp. B, Cperp. D, E parallel F if A perp. B and C perp. D else E perp. F) how would this be represented in graphsynth
22:44.08 madant 6 variables and 3 constraints
22:45.05 kanzure I would have to play around with possible representation methods :)
22:45.14 kanzure one idea that comes to mind is using nodes for perpendicularity/parallelism
22:45.16 brlcad kanzure: 404 on http://66.112.232.182/~bbishop/docs/gears/gears.html
22:45.31 kanzure so if two nodes are connected by "parallel" or "perpendicular", then that's that.
22:46.05 brlcad Ralith: don't think so, but pretty simple to create with the pattern tool .. something I did in a couple minutes a couple years ago here: http://brlcad.org/tmp/gear/
22:46.30 brlcad bjorkintosh: there's a picket fence generator too
22:46.43 kanzure ah, you were the one who did /tmp/gear
22:46.46 Ralith hm
22:46.48 kanzure remembers seeing that a few weeks ago
22:47.17 Ralith not the most gearlike, but I imagine that's not a limitation of the system
22:47.23 brlcad louipc: ls src/shapes
22:47.35 madant kanzure: just describe the new graph for me ?
22:47.42 bjorkintosh haha
22:47.46 bjorkintosh who put these things in there, brlcad?
22:48.19 brlcad louipc: look at the implementation of src/shapes/tire.c .. ged_tire()
22:48.26 madant kanzure: u mean two nodes and multiple edges between them ?
22:49.06 madant kanzure: in that case? lets say the nodes are P(perpendicularity) and U ( parallel) .. how do u model the third constraint ?
22:49.21 kanzure madant: what does the if/then statement signify? "if A per. B" does that mean "if A perp. B is possible" ?
22:49.48 brlcad kanzure: /tmp/gear was a quick example for someone based on known curvature parameters, forget who though
22:50.04 madant kanzure: if A perp. B is satisfied
22:50.15 kanzure then that should be in the grammar rules
22:50.28 brlcad bjorkintosh: various developers -- creating a procedural modeling tool that generates something is actually a great way to become familiar with the code base
22:50.34 kanzure it would be a new rule: "if you see this graph structure, then make this modification"
22:50.48 bjorkintosh you don't say.
22:50.53 starseeker has considered making a gear generator, but coils were more manual labor for a usable result and less tractable to creation via tools like clone
22:50.56 kanzure in particular it would be, using the model I suggested off the top of my head, "if you see A-perp-B (vertices: A, perp, B), then do blah blah blah"
22:51.11 kanzure erm, sorry, vertices: A, perpSOME_ID_NUMBER, B
22:51.21 kanzure the perpendicularity between the two is supposedly unique :-)
22:51.26 brlcad so we often have new developers try to write an app that makes something (of their choice), they end up learning some of libbu, libbn, librt, libwdb and we end up with a simple tool that generates some shape procedurally usually
22:51.30 starseeker gears will probably come later, but the variety is amazing in gears and much thought would be needed to create a sufficiently general framework
22:51.34 madant kanzure: k :)
22:51.42 kanzure starseeker: oh?
22:51.51 kanzure starseeker: that's kind of the work that I'm supposed to be doing right now for the lab
22:52.05 kanzure in particular, I'm also supposedly coming up with a way to display helical gears, worm gears, bevel gears, etc. etc.
22:52.11 starseeker cooool :-)
22:52.11 Ralith starseeker: isn't most of the variety just in the details of the tooth shape?
22:52.27 kanzure and I get to ignore tooth shape (more or less)- which I know you guys are going to hate me for
22:52.31 starseeker Ralith: tooth shape, tooth spacing, overall gear shape, gear interior...
22:52.40 brlcad e.g., I wrote the chain link 'fence' tool probably a decade ago -- it comes in handy for generating scenes for something that would otherwise be very painstaking to model by hand (it generates a physically accurate chain link fence with all the bends and individual wires)
22:52.42 kanzure madant: I think it can be useful for parametrics. I'll definitely talk it over with some labmates soon.
22:53.13 madant kanzure: so effectively the constraint graph in itself does not represent the problem entirely ?
22:53.23 Ralith starseeker: doesn't strike me as terribly hard to abstract.
22:53.40 brlcad you probably have starseeker drooling now .. he's been talking about gears and coils for a while :) (and now has the latter mostly working)
22:53.44 kanzure madant: maybe. I'm still not sure- why is there an if/then in your constraint specification?
22:53.59 starseeker sticks tounge out at brlcad
22:54.13 kanzure starseeker: you should definitely check out the code in the directory I keep linking to
22:54.19 madant kanzure: it is a possible logical constraint right :)
22:54.19 kanzure http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/gears/
22:54.27 starseeker Ralith: It isn't hard to abstract - that's one of the reasons it's a good candidate for a tool
22:54.33 starseeker looks
22:54.53 madant since constraints effectively have two states : only constraints possible between them are in essence logical
22:54.54 kanzure madant: can you give me an example of a situation where I inadvertedly used a logical constraint in a CAD app without perhaps knowing it?
22:55.10 starseeker kanzure: Can't see it from here - I'll have to look later
22:55.21 kanzure starseeker: blah, some of you are unable to load the pages, while others in this channel can
22:55.24 kanzure wtf?
22:55.57 madant kanzure: :) am not really sure if any CAD application supports it.. I mean i have only worked with CATIA and it doesn't..
22:56.08 Ralith starseeker: well, what did you mean by "much thought would be needed to create a sufficiently general framework"?
22:56.09 starseeker Ralith: a lot of the work involved with a gear tool would be identifying what the standard methods are for specifying gear type, size, etc. and wiring up the logic to generate the proper geometry based on those numbers
22:56.30 kanzure yay
22:56.34 Ralith yeah, I imagine it would be mostly research
22:56.35 kanzure starseeker: we should definitely collaborate on this
22:56.35 starseeker for each gear type, there may be a whole sub-set of specifications to look at
22:56.39 madant kanzure: but not sure if many CAD applications support it internally.. will have to think of a case :)
22:56.41 Ralith it sounds ilke an interesting task, though
22:56.46 kanzure Ralith: I'm working with somebody who has done most of that work
22:56.49 kanzure that research work, I mean
22:56.58 Ralith kanzure: cool; has he published his findings anywhere?
22:57.03 kanzure paper in progress
22:57.04 kanzure :)
22:57.10 starseeker kanzure: It'll be a while before I can devote much time to it - I've got other more pressing tasks :-/
22:57.17 Ralith let me know when it's up
22:57.19 Ralith I might just write this
22:57.20 madant kanzure: how many people are working with parametrics and constraints at UT ?
22:57.37 kanzure madant: I don't know anybody who is explicitly working on that problem. :(
22:57.38 kanzure it's so sad
22:57.49 brlcad kanzure: I believe unigraphics can get you into some situations where you use constraints implicitly
22:57.51 kanzure I guess there's me.
22:58.16 brlcad it's got a red-light/green-light to let you know if you're fully constrained or under/over too, interesting concept
22:58.33 starseeker Ralith: then for each gear type, you have to think about precisely what geometry you want to use to represent it. For example, would it be better to use sketches for gear patterns that can be represented as extrusions, or should such gears be combinations of arbs and tgcs?
22:58.43 kanzure yes, I've seen something like that in Solidworks re: red/green light for over/under constrained
22:58.49 starseeker extrusions would do for a lot of types, but not all
22:58.59 madant brlcad: i like the similar feature in catia sketcher.. where they show u overconstrained and underconstrained and correctly constrained elements in different colours
22:59.06 Ralith yeah, I realized that
22:59.09 kanzure starseeker: in my case, the generated CAD file would have to be dependent on the variables that the optimization engine is spitting out
22:59.12 Ralith we can't twist extrusions yet, can we?
22:59.14 kanzure so that kind of solves that problem eh?
22:59.22 kanzure but makes for a perhaps overly constrained gear generator in the end of course :)
22:59.36 brlcad has wanted similar lights for constraining once it's all working, but even now for overlap reporting
22:59.55 starseeker kanzure: In part. You also want to be able to manually specify gears from the command line (or, better, from within MGED) using standard parameters
23:00.00 kanzure right
23:00.05 kanzure no argument there.
23:00.16 Ralith some sort of extrude along a path describing rotation as well as direction; is there a name for that?
23:00.20 madant ah.. so it is effectively : if ( constraint1 = true , constraint 2= true .... ) then constraints=true ;) hypegraph :D
23:00.20 kanzure madant: so was your logic constraint spec an imaginary one? :)
23:00.35 starseeker Ralith: sounds like sweep
23:00.39 Ralith that's it
23:00.44 Ralith we don't have that yet, right?
23:00.47 starseeker right
23:00.55 Ralith 'cuz that would make things easier.
23:01.00 starseeker indeed
23:01.02 kanzure madant: yeah, the solutions would be those graphs where "all constraints have been satisfied" (or eliminated, or completely replaced, or something)
23:01.32 madant kanzure: yep :)
23:01.41 kanzure what would BRLCAD do with multiple solutions to a constraints satisfaction problem anyway?
23:01.46 Ralith in fact, I'm not sure how you'd represent those twisted gears with simple operations on primitives--though I'm no modeler.
23:01.53 kanzure would it let the user pick from a list ? is that how this goes?
23:02.07 starseeker twisted gears? like on oil rig drilling?
23:02.13 Ralith I dunno about oil rigs
23:02.13 starseeker yeah, those would be a problem
23:02.15 kanzure helical gears?
23:02.18 madant yeah the idea is to present the user with the range of options..
23:02.26 Ralith I saw these in a lathe's gearbox
23:02.28 madant asking him for either further constraints or values
23:02.48 starseeker runs through the primitives in his mind...
23:02.54 Ralith imagine taking a normal gear with fine teeth, then twistingthe top and bottom half in opposite directions
23:03.03 Ralith such that the teeth are no longer parallel to the axis
23:03.12 *** join/#brlcad Dr_Phreakenstein (n=phreak@216.151.24.198)
23:03.16 starseeker Oh, that's less of a problem
23:03.26 Ralith they're used to increase contact area between the gears
23:03.38 kanzure madant: so I guess all that I need to do now is figure out how to make grammar rules for solving constraints problems
23:03.48 kanzure and then get the professor to put up a real GPL license for graphsynth
23:03.55 kanzure and then integrate the code and go from there :p
23:04.38 madant kanzure: i will read up on graphsynth today .. is there any documentation other than http://www.me.utexas.edu/~adl/graphsynth/
23:05.43 kanzure not really.
23:05.54 kanzure there's some related stuff here: heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/repo/
23:06.04 kanzure some example graphs of designs: http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/repo/2009-02-20_FS/
23:06.14 starseeker I was thinking of connections like those visible in page two of this patent: http://www.google.com/patents?id=9WEUAAAAEBAJ
23:06.32 kanzure madant: this might be helpful, some powerpoints? http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/repo/presentations/
23:06.37 madant kanzure: :( i don't have access to windows :P
23:06.48 Ralith starseeker: those count as gears?
23:06.59 starseeker It's remotely possible that some application of tgc subtractions could produce that sort of effect...
23:07.12 kanzure madant: there should be some odf presentations there, and if not, don't worry- I don't have access to windows either :)
23:07.16 starseeker Ralith: they can. It's called a twisted prism
23:07.23 Ralith sounds... arcane.
23:07.26 Ralith what're they used for?
23:07.40 starseeker Lots of HP printer cartridges have used it
23:07.49 madant nah.. i meant the actual graphsynth program
23:07.52 Ralith I mean I can see in the drill application it would keep the connections tight
23:07.57 Ralith but in gears?
23:08.08 starseeker it has the advantage of the turning mechanism also pulling the component toward the socket
23:08.10 kanzure madant: nope.
23:08.26 starseeker Ralith: hang on, I'll see if I can find a picture
23:08.29 kanzure btw, I've been able to compile it on monodevelop under linux
23:09.12 brlcad kanzure: how long ago was dns changed?
23:09.18 brlcad (on heybryan.org)
23:09.21 kanzure brlcad: it wasn't! :)
23:09.27 kanzure I mean, I've never set it to 127.0.0.1
23:09.34 kanzure and it hasn't been changed recently
23:09.46 brlcad then you have a bad name server somewhere in there or an expired name or something..
23:09.57 kanzure hrm.
23:10.01 madant hmm.. this is interesting : http://minion.sourceforge.net/
23:10.07 kanzure but then why doesn't the IP address work?
23:10.27 Ralith heybryan.org works for me
23:10.58 madant works for me too @opendns
23:11.12 kanzure haha, somebody's using opendns? :)
23:11.16 Ralith :P
23:11.25 Ralith is using level3's servers
23:11.32 starseeker Ralith: not ideal, but http://www.google.com/patents?id=dGyEAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA37&dq=twisted+prism+gear+helical&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=1_1
23:11.32 brlcad kanzure: ah, there's your problem
23:11.37 brlcad all four of your name servers are dead
23:11.56 kanzure but then what about you being unable to use my IP to access the same content?
23:12.08 starseeker Ralith: element 37a
23:12.08 kanzure madant: so, minion spits out a list of solutions?
23:12.13 brlcad looks like afraid.org lost their name
23:12.22 Ralith starseeker: yeah, I saw... isn't that another interlock?
23:12.32 kanzure http://minion.sourceforge.net/gsoc/index.html
23:12.41 starseeker Ralith: It's a combination of interlock and driver
23:12.43 Ralith or is 39a a matching gear
23:12.55 madant not sure.. just came across it :) scalability seems to be one of their great aims ;)
23:13.01 starseeker yes, 39a is the matching socket
23:13.05 Ralith socket?
23:13.13 Ralith still not a gear, then
23:13.29 starseeker many of these gear types have helical components, but some of them get rotation only from that twisted prism
23:13.36 Ralith well, either way, it's an interesting shape
23:13.42 kanzure madant: it's weird, they seem to be about visualization of results? wtf
23:13.45 Ralith and apparently one we can't model.
23:14.18 starseeker I doubt it. I've been trying to envison some sort of tgc subtraction which could do it, but I doubt it
23:14.46 Ralith would a sweep cover those?
23:14.58 starseeker If sufficiently general, yes
23:15.14 Ralith I'm guessing sweeps are pretty nontrivial to implement, then.
23:15.23 Ralith seems very useful, though...
23:15.42 starseeker yes and yes :-)
23:16.03 madant kanzure: ? visualization
23:16.08 kanzure in their gsoc page
23:16.43 madant ah those are just their ideas page right :)
23:18.00 madant hmm they have a solver independent modeling language too.. nice .. my idea for libpc is somewhat the same in the long run.. i mean multiple solvers for the same constraint network
23:18.47 starseeker Well, enough tgc playing with an arb6 MIGHT produce something interesting, but I don't think it can do it
23:18.54 kanzure shouldn't it just implicitly find all possible solutions, madant ?
23:19.22 madant kanzure: i liked their work too a bit http://www.gecode.org/
23:20.16 madant kanzure: oh the mutliple solvers ? i was just thinking it might be possible that some solvers are better for some graphs / problems
23:20.34 madant kanzure: i was not implying running a set of solvers for getting the complete set of solutions
23:21.43 kanzure ah, better as in more efficient
23:21.43 kanzure okay
23:23.14 madant is diybio fun ;) ?
23:23.18 kanzure very
23:23.35 kanzure scroll down to the bottom of my homepage and I have a link to some recent work I've been doing with 'sharpie microfluidics'
23:23.51 kanzure i.e. prototyping a "lab on a chip" with a sharpie and a few spare CDs using surface tension and the capillary force ;-)
23:24.42 brlcad kanzure: huh, did minion make it?
23:24.55 brlcad ah, no
23:25.27 brlcad going to say, just having two ideas and being that domain-specific .. nearly impossible
23:25.53 madant kanzure: can't find it :P link ?
23:26.03 brlcad madant: that does look like an interesting project, though :)
23:26.13 kanzure madant: http://groups.google.com/group/diybio/msg/1197606e3c3dc439
23:26.55 kanzure (there were 40 messages in that thread .. some of the more recent messages have been about prototyping microchannels via human hair + sharpie.. but anyway)
23:27.03 madant brlcad: yeah.. i will check out their papers tomorrow .. er.. today ( 5 am here) ..
23:27.06 *** join/#brlcad ``Erik___ (i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net)
23:27.16 brlcad pretty bold performance claims
23:27.17 madant should get going to try the Crossfit Murph
23:27.33 brlcad not just an order.. orders* faster
23:27.55 brlcad license is a non-starter though, maybe they'd consider changing it
23:27.59 madant kanzure: see you around.. will definitely check out graphsynth today
23:28.05 kanzure okay, neat :)
23:28.13 kanzure mentions again that he's considering brlcad for gsoc
23:28.14 kanzure heh
23:28.18 brlcad heh
23:28.20 madant brlcad: maybe.. most probably students or profs somewhere..
23:28.43 brlcad yeah, http://minion.sourceforge.net/people.html
23:29.28 madant ok.. :) be back in an hour..
23:29.34 brlcad would be fantastic if they relicensed as lgpl or bsd
23:29.40 brlcad cya madant
23:48.01 starseeker hmm, this is as close to a twisted prism shape as I can come in a short trial: http://bzflag.bz/~starseeker/twisted.png
23:48.07 starseeker not so good
23:59.02 brlcad heck of a lot easier with brep :)
23:59.10 brlcad but probably not as fast

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