IRC log for #brlcad on 20090412

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00:09.22 dreeves2 starseeker was there a reason you were asking about trimming or were you just curious about status?
00:18.14 yukonbob dreeves needs to be told about bitchx, irssi, or similar, and perhaps screen and some always-on account...
00:18.52 yukonbob dreeves: -----^
00:19.23 yukonbob (if your physical self is indeed associated with this network instance)
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01:15.26 dreeves2 hey starseeker
01:21.37 yukonbob dreeves2: are you still 'attached' to the dreeves instance here?
01:29.16 dreeves2 I'm not near that computer currently why?
01:35.59 yukonbob dreeves2: just wondering why you're logged in 2x ;) -- I noticed you're earlier (and this?) client was a cgi gateway, and suggested you get irssi/screen/ and some always-on account, but apparently you're already setup :)
01:36.17 yukonbob s/you're earlier/your earlier/
01:45.05 dreeves2 umm no I just downloaded another client here but that is a good suggestion I have been thinking I need to get that. I will look into that later
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10:42.43 Malyce I built brlcad with 'make' in /home/ubuntu/brl-sf I ran ./configure --prefix=/home/ubuntu/brl-sf for the rt^3 module
10:42.45 Malyce http://bzflag.pastebin.ca/1389557
10:43.19 Malyce the ./configure went fine, but make died
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16:22.09 clark8 ei
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20:34.04 FAMULUS are there improvements to g-stl since version 7.12.2?
20:34.35 FAMULUS g-stl is slow as molasses
20:42.24 tofu FAMULUS: not any changes that will affect it's performance
20:42.27 tofu patches welcome ;)
20:44.29 Ralith FAMULUS: eventually it'll get deprecated by brep based stuff
20:44.45 tofu not really, at least not g-stl
20:45.11 tofu stl is a polygonal format -- going through the brep routines might make some things that used to fail no longer fail
20:45.47 tofu but the reason it takes a long time is because it's trying to verify that the mesh being exported is clean with normals facing outward and solid
20:46.05 tofu expensive operation that wouldn't go away with brep necessarily
20:46.37 tofu FAMULUS: you could use the newer bot_dump command that is MUCH faster (as it makes absolutely no attempt to verify anything being exported
20:47.02 Ralith I got the impression that brep would make mesh generation relatively reliable, lessening the need for verif.
20:47.52 tofu sure, more robust for the things that presently fail (which is like approx < 1% of geometry, but prevalent enough)
20:48.01 FAMULUS hey guys
20:48.06 tofu still, that's just not the time-intensive step
20:48.41 FAMULUS tofu: would bot_dump be expected to produce usable STL files?
20:48.49 tofu you can not do that verification now (hence bot_dump), it's more supposed to be a guarantee of a solid modeling system to always import/export solid objects
20:49.07 tofu FAMULUS: sure stl is a stupid format
20:49.12 tofu it doesn't care
20:49.28 tofu just if you feed that STL into another solid modeling system, it may or may not work
20:49.43 tofu as it may or may not be solid
20:49.48 FAMULUS my target would be a rapid prototyper
20:50.17 tofu ideally for a rapid prototyper, I'd expect a need for solid geometry
20:50.29 tofu but then there are lots of other variables
20:50.37 FAMULUS tofu: ok, so g-stl is the only way to got now
20:51.03 tofu if you have a rapid prototyping system that takes stl inputs, it may very well clean up on import too or have other ways of dealing with non-solid mesh geometry
20:51.32 tofu no, I"d say try bot_dump out if performance is really a problem and not just an annoyance, see what the impact is
20:51.49 tofu otherwise, make it better ;)
20:51.52 FAMULUS tofu: ok, that's my project for today
20:52.02 tofu the verification/closure algorithm isn't optimized, I'm sure
20:52.08 FAMULUS tofu: my stls take like days, it's a non starter
20:52.20 tofu how big of a mesh?
20:52.31 FAMULUS 10,000 triangesl
20:52.37 FAMULUS for smaller pieces
20:52.39 tofu that's not that big
20:52.42 FAMULUS but large ones
20:52.43 tofu how many objects?
20:52.57 FAMULUS good question, one sec
20:54.35 tofu another issue, stil files are "single object" files, so if you have a hierarchy or big assembly of objects, the code has to combine them all into one collection
20:54.54 tofu that unification can take a long (O(N^3)) time
20:55.27 FAMULUS tofu: how do I get count directly, I can't copy from mged terminal
20:56.43 Ralith tofu: really? I would have imagined that traversing even a large tree would be pretty fast, in human terms
20:57.02 Ralith performing all the boolean ops on meshes, perhaps less so
20:57.14 FAMULUS I'd guess ~200 objects
20:57.43 tofu nothing to do with traversing the tree, it's the "merge mesh A into mesh B, performing pairwise tests across the sets, them merge in mesh C and do that again, then merge in mesh D, etd etc
20:57.50 FAMULUS http://prometheusfusionperfection.wordpress.com/2009/02/09/chassis-redesign/
20:57.58 FAMULUS this is the part
20:59.02 tofu hm, yeah -- I bet it's the way you're doing your booleans causing it to be a worst case N^3
20:59.11 tofu did you make any reqgions?
20:59.14 tofu regions
20:59.21 FAMULUS tofu: I think
20:59.22 Ralith FAMULUS: you modeled that in mged? Nice!
20:59.38 FAMULUS `#{mged} 'r torus_negative#{index} u torus_negative_outer#{index} - torus_negative_inner#{index} '` #this hollow center of the torus
20:59.52 FAMULUS Ralith: ruby emitting mged commands
21:00.04 Ralith still nice.
21:00.05 Ralith very pretty.
21:00.09 FAMULUS Ralith: thanks!
21:00.12 Ralith what is it?
21:00.19 hippieindamakin8 FAMULUS, Ralith +1
21:00.29 FAMULUS It's a fusion reactor core
21:00.53 FAMULUS Ralith: about: http://prometheusfusionperfection.wordpress.com/about/
21:00.55 Ralith and you plan on rapid prototyping it? O.o
21:01.03 ``Erik the topology verifier is superlinear, it's an unavoidable suck. B-rep/NURB will only make it not suck if everything is in nurbs
21:01.42 ``Erik (make mged accept ruby statements, then we'll be impressed ;)
21:01.47 FAMULUS Ralith: alread got test parts: http://prometheusfusionperfection.wordpress.com/2009/02/20/manifest/
21:02.15 Ralith cool!
21:02.19 Ralith best of luck to you.
21:03.20 Ralith are you expecting to get positive net energy?
21:03.40 FAMULUS Ralith: supposedly it's possible with bussard reactor
21:03.48 FAMULUS Ralith: my goal for now is first fusion
21:03.59 Ralith you realize that research teams with millions in funding haven't managed that.
21:04.06 FAMULUS Ralith: I know
21:04.07 tofu FAMULUS: it might take a while for someone to look into it, but you could post your .g file up somewhere (maybe to the sf.net tracker) to investigate if there's something simple that can be done to speed things up
21:04.22 FAMULUS Ralith: that's why it's so exciting
21:05.51 FAMULUS Ralith: the fusor (the precursor to bussard reactor) has a long tradition of amateurs (14 or so)
21:06.00 FAMULUS Ralith: so it's not unreasonable to think it possible
21:07.12 Ralith I imagine so.
21:07.22 Ralith nevertheless, you'll embarass a lot of people if you manage
21:08.46 Ralith looks like you have a pretty good idea what you're doing, certainly
21:09.20 ``Erik embarrassing a lot of people is a good thing
21:09.24 FAMULUS Ralith: I lean alot alot every day
21:09.30 FAMULUS learn^
21:09.34 ``Erik it's a loud "get your head out of your ass"
21:09.40 ``Erik also; "a lot" is two words
21:10.27 Ralith embarassing people is indeed positive.
21:10.33 Ralith especially people with millions of dollars.
21:11.39 FAMULUS Ralith: I got to get mged working before any embarassing happens!~
21:11.48 Ralith heh
21:12.06 FAMULUS brb, heading to cafe.
21:20.02 Ralith tofu: just how fast *is* bot_dump?
21:20.14 Ralith fast enough to use it for shaded rendering?
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21:25.43 ``Erik no
21:26.04 Ralith damn.
21:26.33 FAMULUS tofu: is bot_dump available in 7.12.2?
21:29.52 Ralith FAMULUS: any reason not to update?
21:30.18 Ralith also: I suspect most rapid prototyping services are used to recieving non-solid STLs from graphic artists and such, so you'll probably be ok
21:30.45 ``Erik I suspect most of them charge a fair amount if they have to 'fix' the geometry
21:31.38 CIA-28 BRL-CAD: 03Ralith 07http://brlcad.org * r1382 10/wiki/User:Ralith: Added first draft of milestones for OpenGL GUI SoC proposal
21:32.09 Ralith I'd be surprised
21:32.11 ``Erik ralith: iirc, bot_dump expects bot geometry and just walks the tree dumping raw numbers
21:32.13 Ralith but I haven't done it.
21:32.30 Ralith ``Erik: er, so not at all useful for generating tesselations of solid models?
21:32.57 ``Erik a sphere, for example, is not a bot, so does not dump directly. Would have to go through the NMG pass before being bot_dump-able
21:33.32 ``Erik we have some pieces done in a 3d printer at the office, they take stl but they have to be well defined stl's
21:33.56 Ralith well, of course.
21:33.58 FAMULUS ``Erik: does bot_dump produce stls?
21:34.03 Ralith brbs
21:34.09 Ralith wtf, brlcad's not here
21:34.11 Ralith oh well
21:34.18 ``Erik bot_dump produces funky 'bot' files, but stl's aren't much different
21:34.43 ``Erik uhhhhhhh, I think there's a flag to g-stl to ignore topology verification, which makes it really fast
21:34.58 ``Erik (if not, there should be *hint* *hint*)
21:36.25 FAMULUS ``Erik: we'll if I'm stuck with slow g-stl, I was thinking running on a ec2 instance
21:36.38 FAMULUS ``Erik: so I can forget about it for a while
21:36.51 ``Erik technically, BOT allows irregular geometry (the kind video game weenies like)
21:37.06 ``Erik so bot->printableSTL requires verification
21:37.15 ``Erik knowwutahmean,vern?
21:37.21 FAMULUS ``Erik: which is what makes it slow
21:37.31 ``Erik ayup :(
21:37.32 FAMULUS so the verification ^
21:38.02 FAMULUS ``Erik: is BRL-CAD easy to install on ubuntu
21:38.18 ``Erik I suspect so, famulus... I don't use linux, so *shrug*
21:38.49 ``Erik I used to maintain the debian port, but I lost my debian box due to political cocksuckery
21:39.35 ``Erik "linux" is in the regular maintenance path, though, so if you have the right deps installed, it should compile easy
21:39.53 FAMULUS ok
21:40.05 ``Erik (brlcad, starseeker and I tend to use redhat mostly, I think starseeker uses gentoo or something, as well)
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21:40.43 ``Erik <-- hard up on fbsd, brlcad is big on osX
21:40.45 ``Erik :)
21:41.07 FAMULUS ``Erik: my laptop is os x, but EC2 would be ubuntu
21:41.24 ``Erik but we all have a serious hardon for portability, so we drag it to solaris or irix once in a while, and I'm big into 'mega' unix portability, hpux and aix and those
21:41.28 FAMULUS ``Erik: I can't let g-stl process for days, I need to close my laptop
21:41.47 ``Erik even has an image sitting around for a BSD4.3 on vax11/780
21:41.57 ``Erik why do you need to close it?
21:42.06 ``Erik I leave my macbook open for, uh, months at a whack
21:42.11 ``Erik I only shut it down when I have to fly
21:42.14 FAMULUS ``Erik: you know, scene changes
21:42.18 FAMULUS going to work
21:42.21 FAMULUS etc
21:42.41 ``Erik huh, well, if you close your macbook, it sleeps, it doesn't shut down
21:42.53 ``Erik so when you open it, it loads up the memory image and continues
21:43.06 ``Erik *shrug*
21:43.16 FAMULUS ``Erik: true
21:43.26 FAMULUS ``Erik: but you can't really use it without a plug
21:43.31 FAMULUS ``Erik: CPU pegged
21:43.37 ``Erik "man nice"
21:43.45 ``Erik "man batch"
21:44.10 FAMULUS ``Erik: good idea
21:44.23 ``Erik (leave the laptop at home *cough*)
21:45.03 FAMULUS ``Erik: that's what servers are for
21:45.07 ``Erik ayup
21:45.29 ``Erik I seem to be saying "uh, start it on friday and come back on monday" a lot lately :(
21:45.30 FAMULUS ``Erik: would a g-stil web service be useful to community?
21:45.48 ``Erik I'd be surprised
21:46.00 ``Erik the cost of such a service would outweigh 99.9999% folks benefits
21:46.23 ``Erik feel free to try it, but I don't think it'd be ... profitable?
21:46.57 FAMULUS ``Erik: so I'm the only person with this issue?
21:47.15 ``Erik the "NMG is slow" is a known issue
21:48.47 FAMULUS n-manifold geometry
21:49.50 ``Erik also called "non-manifold geometry", sometimes both in the same documentation :(
21:50.06 ``Erik (including, apparently, the original paper Muuss did)
21:50.14 Ralith heh
21:50.38 ``Erik was a topic of discussion last thursday or so
21:50.45 FAMULUS ``Erik: I don't see a wikipedia article for that
21:50.53 Ralith FAMULUS: I'd try disabling the verification in g-stl and sending off the resultant file. Worst-case scenario, they ask you to send them a fixed one.
21:51.31 FAMULUS Ralith: what's flag for that?
21:51.40 Ralith no idea
21:51.50 Ralith as ``Erik says, it may not exist.
21:51.52 Ralith might not be too hard to add.
21:52.06 Ralith on an unrelated note
21:52.09 Ralith ``Erik: you mentoring?
21:52.28 ``Erik does not see such a flag
21:52.42 FAMULUS ``Erik: vaporware
21:52.43 ``Erik um, I'm listed as an admin and kinda thinking my roll will be admin, a mentor for mentors
21:53.06 Ralith that probably works too.
21:53.11 Ralith could I talk ya into reviewing my milestones?
21:53.21 ``Erik though I'm always willing to help with spot details here :)
21:53.43 ``Erik um, yeah, I suppose I should look at the applicants, yes
21:53.47 Ralith hehe
21:53.48 hippieindamakin8 Ralith, done with the patch ?
21:53.52 Ralith what patch
21:53.59 ``Erik we kinda request a patch up front
21:54.08 Ralith oh that
21:54.16 ``Erik to verify that you know how to code, can use the VCS, etc
21:54.21 Ralith well, considering that I've made several miscellaneous commits in the last few weeks...
21:54.21 hippieindamakin8 is working on it now :|..
21:54.29 ``Erik nothin' big, but it's a stumbling block for many
21:54.30 Ralith I think I've got that covered.
21:54.32 hippieindamakin8 Ralith, that should do i guess
21:54.58 hippieindamakin8 loves his fresh archlinux install
21:55.07 Ralith ``Erik: unless I actually should find myself something else to code up?
21:55.13 Ralith perhaps this g-stl flag, even.
21:55.27 Ralith also that reminds me
21:55.42 Ralith FAMULUS: getting BRL-CAD running on linux is easy, even if you have to compile it by hand; I wouldn't be concerned.
21:56.04 Ralith has ran it on every linux/unix system he's had, and it's always been one of the easiest bits.
21:56.14 FAMULUS Ralith: ok good
21:56.25 ``Erik if you're committing, you're already in the circle the patch is for
21:56.32 Ralith yeah, that's what I thought.
21:56.47 hippieindamakin8 Ralith, yeah watever be the case.. most debian systems have the problem of the missing libx11-dev files
21:56.48 Ralith good to have it confirmed.
21:57.02 Ralith hippieindamakin8: er, can't you just install libx11-dev then?
21:57.04 hippieindamakin8 gets back to work .. :P
21:57.15 FAMULUS ``Erik: have you guys though about using github?
21:57.22 Ralith FAMULUS: to host the repo? O.o
21:57.27 ``Erik erm
21:57.29 FAMULUS ``Erik: makes it easier to contribute I think
21:57.33 hippieindamakin8 Ralith, yeah , u have to :)
21:57.34 Ralith changing versioning systems would be a huge deal.
21:57.40 Ralith hippieindamakin8: well of course you do
21:57.42 Ralith but that's trivial
21:57.44 kanzure does the svn-to-git software even work yet?
21:58.04 ``Erik we just went through the pain of cvs->svn, and I think we like the centralized VCS
21:58.04 ``Erik :)
21:58.04 Ralith does like how arch installs headers with everything, though
21:58.13 hippieindamakin8 Ralith, exactly :)
21:58.16 ``Erik effin' HATES how one of his projects has deps that require: CVS, SVN, darcs, git, ...
21:58.32 ``Erik ralith: if you like that, check out one of the BSD's
21:58.40 ``Erik we've been doin' it that way since, uh, the 80's
21:58.40 ``Erik :D
21:58.41 Ralith I used to run FreeBSD.
21:58.47 Ralith I got tired of waiting hours for firefox to compile :P
21:58.51 ``Erik hehehe
21:58.56 Ralith arch is a good compromise
21:59.00 ``Erik pkg_add can grab a binary
21:59.05 Ralith minimal and dev-friendly, but binary-friendly too
21:59.20 Ralith sure, it *can*, but the system's really made to use sources, and binaries can lead to problems
21:59.28 ``Erik *shrug* whatever makes you happy :) I like fbsd myself, I'm ok with letting a "portmanager -u -bu -l" run overnight
21:59.42 ``Erik ain't in no rush these days
21:59.47 Ralith I've been knocking back and forth between sourcebased and binbased systems for a while
22:00.24 Ralith back on the VC subject, I have to say, it's *really* nice to be able to do local commits; helps keep commits small and focused on single logical changes, and helps keep the main repo fully functional (i.e. no half-implemented features)
22:01.00 ``Erik hm, do it in the upstream VCS, mebbe one of your commits will be you fighting something that someone has an easy answer for
22:01.15 Ralith huh?
22:01.24 ``Erik if it's broken, wrap the broken stuff in #if 0, if it's a big breakage, make a branch
22:01.31 Ralith sure, that works
22:01.34 Ralith but it's a bit ugly
22:01.53 ``Erik if you commit something small cuz you're struggling with a lame issue and brlcad or drossberg or I say "well, dur, just do this", that might save you many many many hours
22:02.09 Ralith centralized versioning encourages making commits relatively large.
22:02.27 ``Erik and my tire iron encourages keeping them small and frequent
22:02.28 ``Erik O:-)
22:02.30 Ralith hehe
22:03.29 Ralith so how closely are students expected to stick to their timeline?
22:03.50 Ralith I need to write one up, but I really am not sure how much time to allocate to any given milestone.
22:03.52 ``Erik students are expected to communicate with their mentors
22:04.55 tofu on the contrary, to be *effective*, centralized requires small succinct commits
22:05.05 ``Erik timelines change, that's known, *shrug* can't do anything about it, it's reality. but it's a big growing point in a developers growth to be able to admit the change happens and work around it, opposed to pretending it's a failure and trying to hiding it
22:05.13 tofu at best a different work breakdown structure, so that you can work on small pieces that are all fully functional
22:05.36 ``Erik tofu: to be effective, yes, but some people don't want to present code until it's "perfect" :(
22:05.39 tofu there's nothing inherint to the system that encourages larger commits other than really bad practice
22:05.41 Ralith tofu: I'm not sure that's always feasible.
22:05.55 Ralith though I guess I really lack the experience to argue this very effectively
22:06.05 ``Erik distributed VCS allows people to go hide in a corner and pretend they're good citizens
22:06.22 tofu Ralith: i've heard that claim many a time over, but not once has it actually been shown to be true -- it's folks not wanting to change their work breakdown
22:06.39 Ralith fine, fine
22:07.13 FAMULUS ``Erik: I would argue that git/github lowers the barrier to entry for contribution
22:07.56 FAMULUS ``Erik: just fork the repo and off you go
22:08.06 ``Erik I'd argue that dvcs tends to contribute to bad behavior wrt FOSS citizenship
22:08.09 tofu Ralith: and bot_dump isn't fast/slow -- it just dumps the data for a triangle mesh to the prescribed format
22:08.12 ``Erik exactly! "fork the repo" is bad
22:08.29 FAMULUS ``Erik: I say it's good!
22:08.35 tofu it doesn't actually tessellation, you need a BoT to start with
22:08.40 Ralith tofu: yeah, I misunderstood; thought you were proposing it as an unchecked equivalent to g-stl
22:08.41 ``Erik you disassociate from the community when you do that
22:08.57 ``Erik and that's the single thing that makes foss awesome, the community... you're throwing away the #1 advantage
22:09.22 FAMULUS ``Erik: I completely disagree. If someone does some hotness it wll get merged
22:09.48 FAMULUS ``Erik: and even before that, you can see someone is ahead of the main repo (via the graph)
22:10.00 FAMULUS ``Erik: and sometimes it's the probem you had
22:10.08 ``Erik I'm learning a new framework in a new language with a new editor and everything... I ask really stupid questions, frequently. I share what I'm doing often. The framework authors and gurus are updating the framework frequently, and their documentation... because of my stupidness :) it's good!
22:11.00 ``Erik the gurus doing hotness will know how to behave with svn, the 'average' new contributor will greatly benefit and will benefit the community by making their education public
22:11.01 ``Erik :)
22:12.46 tofu FAMULUS: this argument of centralized over distributed is a very old and tired debate, frankly -- and not one that hasn't been considered and discussed many times over
22:13.02 FAMULUS tofu: agreed. I don't really care
22:13.03 tofu there are counter arguments and downsides to distributed
22:13.16 tofu just as there are for centralized
22:14.24 tofu code dumps are generally very unhealthy for a codebase, no matter how 'hotness' a feature is
22:15.02 tofu especially if it's development hasn't been communicated throughout development, it is very often a foreign mismatched codebase with a near 1 bus factor
22:16.01 tofu communication is key, and you can have healthy/unhealthy communication regardless of being distributed or centralized, with the only difference being that distributed doesn't require it and centralized exposes earlier
22:16.47 FAMULUS tofu: how do I invoke dot_dump?
22:16.52 FAMULUS bot_dump
22:16.54 tofu when the dev team is small, i.e. less than 50 or so active committers, the hierarchical approach that distributed allows isn't really gained
22:17.28 tofu are you asking and answering your own question?
22:17.34 tofu ah, dot
22:17.42 tofu that's the answer, bot_dump
22:18.00 FAMULUS ok
22:18.00 tofu added in 7.14.2
22:18.03 FAMULUS ah ok
22:18.15 tofu tell me you at least tried before asking how you run "bot_dump" :)
22:18.17 FAMULUS so for os x, I'll have to compile to get that version?
22:18.50 tofu yes, there hasn't been a binary os x release in a while
22:19.02 FAMULUS tofu: ok, so thats my next move
22:24.11 *** mode/#brlcad [+o brlcad] by ChanServ
22:27.11 *** join/#brlcad BigAToo (n=BigAToo@pool-96-230-124-155.sbndin.btas.verizon.net)
22:30.41 ``Erik doh, hah, karel keeps using _sushi_, for some reason, I got a mental crosswire on handle vs person
23:07.51 Ralith mm, sushi
23:23.29 *** join/#brlcad FAMULUS (n=mark@ool-ad028f27.dyn.optonline.net)
23:25.30 yukonbob reads scrollback
23:26.09 madant is a strict non-fish-arian
23:29.04 Ralith enjoys some easter chocolate as he works on his timeline
23:29.35 ``Erik drinks some sunday vodka and watches tv
23:36.42 madant just had some water :| , breakfast in 2.5 hours
23:50.44 CIA-28 BRL-CAD: 03Ralith 07http://brlcad.org * r1383 10/wiki/User:Ralith: Added first draft of timeline for OpenGL GUI SoC proposal
23:51.11 Ralith heh, CIA dropped the notification before I managed to load the page.
23:55.17 brlcad :)
23:59.57 *** join/#brlcad BigAToo (n=BigAToo@pool-96-230-124-155.sbndin.btas.verizon.net)

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