IRC log for #brlcad on 20090417

00:58.28 *** join/#brlcad jonored (n=jonored@LAZARUS2.WIFI.WPI.EDU)
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01:02.21 ``Erik bakes dinner and watches futurama
01:30.56 yukonbob afternoon, cadheads
01:41.17 jonored finds the implementation of what he just derived in amongst the openNURBS code, and facepalms.
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02:56.14 brlcad jonored: hehe
03:01.26 brlcad though have to actually look at the implementation -- some functions they define (and have implemented in their commercial API product), but don't actually have an implementation
03:07.59 jonored The implementation looks about like what I was headed at.
03:12.39 brlcad cool
03:13.03 brlcad that's frustrating but also releiving to find things like that
03:13.24 brlcad like working through a hard math problem, only to realize it's in the answer key in the back and you got it right
03:13.32 jonored ON_EvPrincipalCurvatures in opennurbs_math.cpp - it looks plausible that it's doing what it should, I haven't checked for exact equivalence but it would be surprising.
03:14.28 jonored I've gotten a chunk more of an idea how to approach issues of applied differential geometry, at least :)
03:14.47 jonored (er, would be surprising to have that much and not doing its job.)
03:35.16 ``Erik yowza, both daily show and colbert report are on a roll concerning the "teabaggers"
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06:29.03 *** mode/#brlcad [+o brlcad] by irc.freenode.net
06:53.45 *** join/#brlcad hippieindamakin8 (n=hippiein@202.3.77.38)
07:21.22 Ralith Sir Morrison
07:21.23 Ralith hehe
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08:27.24 _pseudo irc on my ipod!
08:27.42 pacman87 ^^ that's me, btw
08:28.47 *** join/#brlcad _pseudo_ (n=irchon@wireless-128-62-174-226.public.utexas.edu)
08:30.16 _pseudo_ unstable app + unstable wireless
08:32.21 *** join/#brlcad _pseudo (n=irchon@wireless-128-62-174-226.public.utexas.edu)
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09:14.11 pacman87 ssh + screen + irssi would be a much better solution
09:16.26 archivist unstable wireless should be killed at birth
10:24.33 d-lo yawns.
10:24.39 d-lo Morning all!
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11:11.55 d-lo hahahaha: http://www.rpgjunction.com/verizon_cheque.jpg-48.html
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11:51.54 brlcad a check for 0.002, funny
11:56.06 archivist I like the cursor magnifier on that page
12:26.44 brlcad good answer
12:26.47 brlcad (dave)
12:29.07 d-lo still trying to get the hang of this Politically Correct talk ;) But thanks.
12:38.10 ``Erik allows js for that page... yes, a reasonably neat trick
12:39.02 ``Erik wait, isn't randall monroe the guy who does xkcd?
12:39.56 d-lo sure looks like it.
12:40.12 archivist a google sez yes
12:45.17 d-lo ``Erik: how many astros you got now? 15
12:48.18 hippieindamakin8 pacman87, some of the people i know run irssi on this small device called pogoplug using ssh+screen
12:48.27 ``Erik 15 on epsi, 9 on fenix
12:48.47 ``Erik my two new epsi astros are throwing up pringles and have no spaceports and eco's in the 70's
12:48.56 ``Erik plus a few dn's and some ft cloud over them
12:49.10 ``Erik NOT profitable targets :D
12:49.37 d-lo niceness.
12:50.09 ``Erik this exercise needs to happen, I have two planets with empty production queues that can churn out levis
12:50.13 d-lo was poking around on the epsi site last night and saw your 4K econ. Nice :)
12:50.25 d-lo what excersize?
12:50.39 ``Erik um, the big gathering in 81 to go jack with anti
12:51.13 ``Erik after thte slz crash, we got a nap with just about every 'superpower' we're not friends with heh, but anti has been hitting the newbs left and right
12:51.15 d-lo only been back in the saddle for 2 days now. :)
12:54.09 d-lo when is the 81ex going to launch?
13:05.37 brlcad so what level are you two up to?
13:05.58 d-lo as in player level? 54 i think.
13:06.59 d-lo brlcad: you still playing?
13:07.09 brlcad sorta
13:07.24 brlcad i keep it going, slowly build up
13:08.15 d-lo cool. I got the impression that you quit out of bordom
13:08.52 brlcad pretty well fortified now, fewer and fewer pot shots
13:09.19 d-lo guildless still working out for ya I see :)
13:09.25 brlcad pretty well
13:09.42 brlcad and a few guilds that protect me
13:14.01 d-lo ... how is the ogre library in rt^3 compiled? I don't see how....
13:16.41 d-lo nm
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13:24.08 ``Erik pixie dust
13:24.21 d-lo just about :)
13:24.22 ``Erik I've scrapped some big fleet in gate crashes, so I'm down to 50ish
13:25.28 *** join/#brlcad starseeker (n=starseek@bz.bzflag.bz)
13:25.33 ``Erik the game has become more of a combination of espionage against a possible future competitor and establishing a network of friends to sucker into seeding a new userbase for me
13:25.35 ``Erik O:-)
13:25.39 ``Erik practices his evil laugh some
13:25.45 starseeker jeez that was weird
13:25.56 starseeker has apparently been knocked off for 2 days
13:26.17 starseeker mutter...
13:26.23 starseeker where do we stash the archives again?
13:27.04 ``Erik archives of what?
13:27.09 starseeker irc chats
13:27.51 ``Erik google tells me http://ibot.rikers.org/%23brlcad/
13:28.27 d-lo ``Erik: are you saying that you have started work on your game?
13:28.29 starseeker scowls at google for not telling him that
13:28.56 ``Erik planning, coding toy apps to verify knowledge
13:29.07 starseeker bookmarks it this time
13:37.23 starseeker glares at the cat, who is mistaking the living room for a race track
13:37.46 d-lo better a racetrack than a litterbox!
13:39.09 madant ~help
13:39.14 ``Erik give it a potato http://www.youtube.com/swf/l.swf?video_id=nkHBuh21AMg
13:40.23 archivist heh on the same trak as me ``Erik I just been watching that kitteh
13:40.48 ``Erik in ur intarwebz, steelin' ur branewavez
13:42.20 brlcad ~logs
13:42.21 ibot All conversations are logged to http://ibot.rikers.org/channel, where "channel" is replaced by the URL-encoded channel name, such as %23freenode for #freenode. Lines starting with spaces are not logged.
13:52.32 *** join/#brlcad d_rossberg (n=rossberg@bz.bzflag.bz)
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15:09.40 d-lo d_rossberg: are you around?
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15:22.31 d_rossberg d-lo: partial, i'm writing a reply to your brlcad-devel mail
15:22.45 d-lo kk, thats what I was going to ask about :)
16:18.16 brlcad responds, open to talk here or list in follow-up
16:18.56 brlcad sounds like there's a disconnect about what the goals of the GS actually are
16:27.07 *** join/#brlcad dreeves2 (n=dreeves@64.178.177.71)
16:29.13 d_rossberg brlcad: i looked at the GE header files in rt^3, they are different from what i did
16:29.35 d_rossberg they have even few in common from what i did in the core interfac
16:31.34 d_rossberg maybe GE should be defined more precisely before this can be decided finally
16:31.54 d_rossberg (this was the conclusion of 1))
16:33.16 brlcad d_rossberg: that GE files are very much a work-in-progress -- several of the classes there belong over in the GS, not the GE, for example
16:33.37 d_rossberg this could be the point
16:33.45 brlcad all that is left is a few geometry object classes
16:33.55 brlcad and that overlaps very much with what you've done
16:34.13 brlcad your classes are more in-line with the direction it still needs to go regardless
16:34.23 d_rossberg and many of them are already in work (the object classes)
16:34.36 brlcad you mean in core?
16:36.41 d_rossberg the cone, torus etc. (8 pieces) are currently in work for the core interface
16:37.14 brlcad much of what is presently in the GE dir was worked out primarily as a means to sort out what the GS needed to accomplish its task, some stubbed, some that needed to be in GS but was put into GE, it's not actually all been "sorted out" -- the emphasis was on the GS
16:37.44 brlcad so it can (and necessarily will) change, quite a bit
16:38.13 brlcad from a design goal perspective, though, what was done in jbrlcad and what you've done in core are what GE is supposed to envelop
16:38.49 d_rossberg you see, if i look at what i have (brlcad wiki, sources in rt^3) i have to come to the conclusion GE != coreInterface
16:39.03 d_rossberg therefore i will wait for the changes
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16:39.49 d_rossberg e.g. dave may show how he would like to see the coreInterface integrated into his concept of a GE
16:40.39 d_rossberg on the other side, his top-down approach wasn't so bad
16:41.29 d_rossberg my impression was, the the GE is a concept of how a CAD interface should look like
16:42.06 d_rossberg then we may see how this concept can be realised with help of the core interface
16:42.24 brlcad yeah, I think that's the biggest difference
16:42.35 brlcad you were coming at it bottom-up, he was top-down
16:43.07 brlcad your experience with LIBRT greatly influenced the bottom-up (and is probably why I like it so much)
16:43.17 brlcad his top-down was mostly driven by GS requirements
16:43.52 brlcad there's a middle ground in there somewhere I'm sure, and it's closer to LIBRT than it is to the GS..
16:45.25 d_rossberg is away (for some minutes)
16:45.42 brlcad I would like to (very LONG-term) end up with an API similar to Geomis/ACIS/Solidworks, etc, but not so much mirroring their API as using our libs and requirements and building up an API that allows apps to be written that utilize the GE (for writing viewers, CAD modelers, visualization apps, etc)
16:45.58 brlcad too, must clean house
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17:46.53 ``Erik clean mine while you're at it
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18:53.15 ``Erik http://www.netzgesta.de/sphere/ heh, noscript makes it look pretty stupid though :)
18:54.25 ``Erik I do like that it has a fake "guru meditation" window that the js hides, that's nifty
18:55.17 ``Erik eck, license suckage, though
18:55.28 d-lo yeah saw that.
18:55.39 d-lo but hey, hack hac hack.
18:57.22 ``Erik hm, 'onmousemove' is nifty, it's vrry fast on osX ff
19:05.21 d-lo ``Erik: email sent!
19:06.28 ``Erik w00t
19:08.43 B_wooster is sorry for the spam
19:21.54 *** join/#brlcad hippieindamakin8 (n=hippiein@202.3.77.38)
19:58.13 ``Erik has another lowhanging fruit idea for people new to BRL-CAD development and looking for a tiny project
19:58.46 ``Erik opendb -r myfile.g for forcing a read-only open (even if the file permissions allow write)
19:59.44 ``Erik (and a read-only checkbox in the db open dialog)
20:09.13 jonored_ Is there somewhere I can grab a nurbs object to test this with? I can't seem to find the .g files for the test cases shown at http://brlcad.org/wiki/BREP_Primitive and would like to see whether I'm getting plausible curvatures out...
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20:56.18 dreeves3 jonored hang on I will tell you where you can get the .g file
20:57.20 dreeves3 http://bzflag.bz/~starseeker/nurbs_test.g
20:57.30 dreeves3 jonored_^^^^^
20:58.07 dreeves3 open nurbs is giving good curvatures....What are you working on?
21:00.40 brlcad notes that should be http://bzflag.bz/~starseeker/nurbs_tests.g
21:02.18 CIA-28 BRL-CAD: 03Sean 07http://brlcad.org * r1418 10/wiki/BREP_Primitive: /* Current Images of test cases */ link to the test geometry
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21:25.20 jonored_ dreeves2: Oh, did you already get rt_brep_curve done and just not have it in the repo?
21:26.49 brlcad I think he just meant in general
21:27.03 brlcad curve() and norm() are still unimplemented afaik
21:32.15 jonored_ Actually, I'm pretty sure that the proper implementation of norm given the current implementation of shot /is/ an empty method. It looks (at least to me) that shot is filling it in already.
21:32.44 brlcad shot does a guess based on the hit point and ray direction if the primitive did nothing
21:32.53 brlcad if that's the right answer, the primitive should still do that work
21:38.02 jonored_ I mean that rt_brep_shot is setting hit_normal already - looks to me like it's getting the information as part of finding the point anyhow, so might as well keep it.
22:04.15 brlcad hmm
22:04.22 Ralith afternoon all
22:04.28 Ralith how goes, jonored_?
22:08.23 jonored_ Not bad. Heading out soon, though.
22:08.40 starseeker ooo - http://www.fabathome.org/wiki/index.php?title=Fab@Home:Model_1_Bill_of_Materials#Full_System_CAD_Files
22:10.05 brlcad starseeker: heh, interesting find
22:10.30 starseeker adds it to his archive of open cad goodies
22:10.49 starseeker will need to get ahold of a working Solidworks to properly convert it though
22:10.54 brlcad good set of test cases if someone works on the sldprt converter
22:11.18 brlcad ah, they provide conversions already too
22:11.35 brlcad for at least one of them
22:12.12 starseeker nods
22:12.21 starseeker I don't think that's the full model though
22:14.05 brlcad wonders if starseeker would rather be mentoring a certain (unmentionable until the 20th) applicant that is presently assigned to me given his interest
22:14.12 starseeker the source code seems to be BSD licensed - not sure if that applies to the models...
22:14.15 starseeker checks
22:14.32 starseeker ah
22:14.44 brlcad kinda right up your alley :)
22:14.44 starseeker yeah, that might work
22:15.05 brlcad related to GS priority too
22:15.17 brlcad (loosely)
22:15.19 starseeker is just a sucker for nice purty screenshots of sophisticated models in BRL-CAD ;-)
22:15.46 starseeker not to mention the test case angle
22:16.24 Ralith pretty pictures are always great fun.
22:16.36 brlcad I think it would be awesome if you could just upload an unspecified file to a site and have it give you a sheet of information about it -- objects in the file, types, conversions to other formats, various automatic renderings
22:16.55 Ralith mightn't that be a pretty big CPU load?
22:17.02 Ralith I suppose heavy use of nice would render that moot
22:17.02 brlcad so queue it up
22:17.21 Ralith I'd just be concerned about scalability if it got popular
22:17.30 starseeker brlcad: that only works for non-commercial formats though
22:17.40 Ralith not hard to distribute, though.
22:17.40 starseeker proe/solidworks/etc. are a no-go
22:17.47 brlcad starseeker: not necessarily
22:17.51 starseeker blinks
22:17.52 brlcad exporting sure
22:17.56 Ralith starseeker: why? patents?
22:17.56 brlcad but not importing
22:18.06 brlcad that's just up to our ability to read/write them
22:18.06 starseeker Ralith: file format parsing
22:18.08 jonored_ Would look kind of like thingiverse.com but doing more?
22:18.20 brlcad sldprt is a published spec iirc -- that's why it's on my list
22:18.31 starseeker oh - solidworks part?
22:18.33 brlcad sltprt/sldasm files are like iges
22:18.51 brlcad complex support but easily parsed
22:18.56 starseeker nods
22:19.09 brlcad someone motivated could probably whip something up in a really short amount of time
22:19.15 starseeker I was sure Pro-E was a non-starter though?
22:19.44 brlcad jonored_: interesting, hadn't heard of them
22:20.17 brlcad depends -- it is possible, but it'd take more development effort
22:20.28 starseeker (actually, can't take credit for finding the fab@home models - emailed and asked ;-)
22:20.37 brlcad the converter we have wasn't made to be stand-alone -- it was made to be a pro/e plugin
22:20.56 starseeker right
22:20.57 brlcad but the unigraphics converter, for example, was similarly designed but is stand-alone
22:21.23 starseeker either way though, I'd have thought licensing restrictions would put the kabosh on wholesale conversions like that
22:21.30 brlcad their libraries allow linkage and redistribution after you go through some horribly absurd locking/unlocking process
22:21.51 starseeker blinks
22:22.36 brlcad it's a lot easier to explain by going through the process but basically (at least for unigraphics/nx) you link up your exporter against their libraries and it works just fine for your licensed system
22:22.42 brlcad but it won't work anywhere else
22:22.52 starseeker ah
22:22.58 brlcad then there's another "unlock" step that you apply to your binary
22:23.15 brlcad takes about a half-hour (and has nothing to do with cpu time)
22:23.26 brlcad then that binary will work anywhere
22:23.37 starseeker interesting
22:23.54 brlcad that's how we used to distribute it .. and one we should get around to updating and getting working again next time someone needs to poke NX
22:26.25 brlcad jonored_: yeah, looks sort of similar to thingiverse but little more focus on the models and model data itself and less/no focus on what it's used for
22:30.14 brlcad wonders if that is a rails app
22:32.16 jonored_ doesn't know how they've got that set up, but it's associated with the reprap crowd.
22:32.28 brlcad nods
22:32.52 brlcad understandable, strong focus on rapid prototyping and machining
22:33.08 brlcad cool, http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:249
22:33.42 Ralith yeah, it's zach's
22:34.30 starseeker hmm - stl
22:34.47 Ralith everything reprap is stl right now.
22:34.52 Ralith kind of a shame
22:35.20 Ralith in fact, it was reprap and the horrid lack of good CAD free tools that got me into CAD in the first place
22:35.27 brlcad starseeker: if you've not seen this .. contains most of the classics: http://www.lodbook.com/models/
22:36.06 starseeker oo - thanks
22:36.18 starseeker I'd see the stanford site with their models
22:36.34 Ralith stanford seems to have a lot of small statuettes.
22:36.40 brlcad yeah, but they also link to a bunch of other entire repositories of models
22:37.14 brlcad Ralith: they are one of the main powerhouses that kicked off most of the research on converting laser-scan data into 3D models
22:37.24 Ralith cool
22:38.09 brlcad you can't go to siggraph without seeing a stanford bunny at least .. a few times
22:38.25 starseeker hmm... not to many that sound like they're really "open source"
22:38.30 Ralith yeah, I"ve seen that around
22:39.09 starseeker 's favorite visual from last year was a plastic bunny getting squeezed out of a press :-)
22:39.38 hippieindamakin8 brlcad, woah ...
22:39.42 brlcad I'd like our model repository to specifically cater to unrestricted use copyleft style
22:39.56 starseeker would suggest we require it
22:39.56 Ralith is someone applying to do that?
22:40.09 brlcad starseeker: absolutely -- it's just "how far"
22:40.16 starseeker ah, good poing
22:40.17 starseeker er point
22:40.31 starseeker do my bidding, fingers!
22:40.51 brlcad e.g. whether to allow free for any use whatsover, exept commercial use, style licenses
22:41.01 brlcad as that is most of the academic models
22:41.18 starseeker those are annoying, but quite common
22:41.31 starseeker I would say have a distinct, non-commercial section
22:41.34 starseeker make it clear up front
22:42.12 Ralith that seems to invite the creation of all sorts of sections for various licenses
22:42.20 Ralith not a very clear place to draw a line.
22:42.25 starseeker Ralith: no, not really
22:42.38 starseeker some sort of filtered search is the general solution
22:42.55 Ralith why not just prominently display the license for each model, and leave it nice and general?
22:42.58 starseeker but the commercial/non-commercial use distinction is pretty common
22:42.59 brlcad on the other extreme, whether to allow something akin to a "GPL" licensed model, or limit it only to LGPL/BSD/MIT/BY/BY-SA style licenses
22:43.27 starseeker isn't even sure what GPL/LGPL really mean for CAD models
22:43.47 brlcad Ralith: mostly to avoid the problem of things like CGAL where all the best stuff is untouchable, and you have to hunt individually
22:44.08 Ralith wouldn't a flexible search system as is par for the course these days suffice?
22:44.15 brlcad starseeker: the spirit of those license, there are "CC equivalents" to GPL
22:44.24 starseeker no, you don't want to parade the non-commercial stuff
22:44.36 starseeker make it available, but encourage the totally free licenses
22:44.47 Ralith I suppose isolating it would encourage people to license their stuff otherwise
22:44.52 brlcad Ralith: possibly, but still can end up with the issue of having all the best stuff be untouchable
22:45.07 starseeker exactly
22:45.33 Ralith hadn't considered that many models probably won't already have a license associated
22:45.48 brlcad specifically towards being a repository of freely unencumbered models that I know I can use
22:45.51 Ralith (thus requiring the author to choose one in the context we present)
22:45.51 starseeker open source CAD models are pretty rare
22:46.03 brlcad exceptionally rare
22:46.12 Ralith here's to hoping we can change that.
22:46.18 starseeker so the time to start a trend is now :-)
22:46.21 Ralith ^^
22:46.42 starseeker if a good body of freely available (commercial and non-commercial) models can be created and get most of the attention, that builds a momentum
22:47.18 Ralith good PR for brl-cad itself, too.
22:47.19 hippieindamakin8 ex: the model of the bussard reactor core
22:47.23 starseeker sort of the way the FSF built up the GPL - if OpenSolaris had appeared just when the GPL was getting started, the world would probably look rather different now
22:48.21 Ralith hippieindamakin8: got a link for that?
22:48.23 Ralith is curious
22:48.38 brlcad also to be clear, really don't want to get into the business of how people license their works -- just want the scope of the repository to be a well-defined useful resource -- "open source" CAD models
22:48.39 Ralith you mean the model that guy was working on?
22:48.50 jonored_ hippieindamakin8: I was thinking the same thing... a good drawing of the internals of a polywell would be shiny...
22:49.04 starseeker yes, only concerned with licensing of cad models as a means to an end
22:49.16 hippieindamakin8 Ralith, yeah the one famulus is working on
22:49.20 Ralith kk
22:49.39 starseeker the end being lots of good quality free models :-)
22:50.12 starseeker hmm
22:50.21 starseeker (the cat insists on being petted)
22:50.31 Ralith cats do that.
22:50.46 hippieindamakin8 http://prometheusfusionperfection.wordpress.com/2009/04/16/fusor-core/
22:50.50 hippieindamakin8 Ralith, ^
22:50.53 brlcad ideally even scoping the site even further to distinguish or require that the models also be solid geometry, so that they are "real world" models
22:51.00 Ralith hippieindamakin8: yeah, I remember that
22:51.46 brlcad things I could feed to a CNC or rapid prototyper or an analysis, compute weights/moments on, calculate volumes, etc
22:53.08 Ralith oh yeah
22:53.11 Ralith jonored_: how's the slicer doing?
22:53.41 hippieindamakin8 brlcad, i guess the repository can be integrated into drupal
22:53.58 brlcad into anything really
22:54.22 jonored_ Ralith: Most of the way cleaned up, but still taken a back seat to graduating.
22:55.05 Ralith of course. Looking forward to playing with it.
22:57.22 Ralith brlcad: did you have any further input on my milestones/timeline?
22:59.19 brlcad Ralith: not today :)
22:59.29 Ralith kk
22:59.34 brlcad is decompressing a little
22:59.50 Ralith that's always nice.

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