IRC log for #brlcad on 20090424

00:09.27 brlcad miqlas: does the SE assembly include all of that geometry?
00:09.46 miqlas yes, it include all of them
00:09.55 brlcad and how about LGPL?
00:10.02 miqlas Ralith: with commands. Typing with keyboard...
00:10.05 brlcad or BSD/MIT
00:10.49 Ralith miqlas: what's wrong with that?
00:10.57 brlcad or CC-BY or CC-BY-SA
00:11.01 Ralith done right, that kind of interface can be a big improvement on a GUI
00:11.10 miqlas brlcad : it was an complex work, and if it will good for BRL-CAD You can use it for free, and with any licenses. You can select the best for You.
00:11.29 brlcad miqlas: I can't select a license unless you public domain it
00:11.34 brlcad and I dont' think you should do that
00:11.50 miqlas Ralith : what is wrong? nothing, but i don't want make it. :S
00:12.12 Ralith :P
00:12.13 brlcad I care mostly about you getting attribution for the work
00:12.32 miqlas Okay, you can make anything with it. This is belong to the community. MIT, okay?
00:12.34 Ralith brlcad: I think he means he'll use what you suggest.
00:12.35 brlcad beyond that, I don't mind -- gpl is just problematic because of how it defines a collective work
00:12.51 brlcad miqlas: sure, that works great
00:13.12 miqlas Then okay. :D
00:13.21 brlcad that website repository could come in handy right now :)
00:13.27 brlcad where is elena? :)
00:13.58 miqlas Now it have CC license in the package. I need delete the license, or You belive to me, i give it to community with MIT?
00:14.15 brlcad (not a serious question, she's on the road visiting family right now)
00:14.16 miqlas And wich format You want? SEv10 academic, or independent?
00:14.35 brlcad miqlas: how big is it?
00:14.44 miqlas 14 Mb.
00:15.52 brlcad mm, if you e-mail that to me saying you are sharing it under the MIT license and I can replace the CC license with the MIT license, I can do the work
00:16.23 brlcad otherwise, you can add a text file with it or something that has a statement
00:16.29 brlcad a README or something
00:16.44 miqlas Then native Sev10 (academic!! You can't open it in industrial version!) format will be good for You?
00:17.07 brlcad hm, lemme check on that
00:17.08 brlcad not sure
00:17.35 miqlas I can convert with academic version for You to step, or anything else format
00:18.30 brlcad oh yeah, then please do -- the SE format itself isn't useful
00:18.37 brlcad I was just going to export as well
00:18.49 brlcad 3ds, step, iges, dxf
00:18.55 brlcad all useful/interesting formats
00:19.04 miqlas Okay. But here is now 02:18am, and i don't have SE installed. I will send it for You at morning. Okay?
00:19.06 brlcad Hmmm.... http://www.sharewareconnection.com/3ds-export-for-solid-edge.htm
00:19.12 miqlas Are You always onine on IRC?
00:19.20 brlcad miqlas: okay, no rush and thank you!
00:19.25 brlcad yeah, I'm always on irc
00:19.34 brlcad if I don't immediately respond, I eventually will
00:19.38 miqlas Feel free to give a beer:)
00:19.50 brlcad will certainly!
00:19.59 brlcad hope to have the opportunity to some day :)
00:20.23 miqlas ;)
00:20.28 brlcad good grief.. 200 bucks for a shareware 3ds exporter, heh
00:20.50 brlcad especially given they're probably using openNURBS which did half the work for them
00:21.26 miqlas :) good marketing.
00:23.03 miqlas But brlcad you need make something for the cad assembly...
00:23.55 brlcad hm?
00:24.21 miqlas Please, make the BRL-CAD to very portable app. We, at in the Haiku commiunity don't like if an app have very special requiments. For example not portable libraryes, flash, or any bloated things.
00:25.03 brlcad miqlas: we have historically been one of the most portable pieces of software out there -- you end up being very portable after 25 years of development
00:25.06 miqlas Please, make the BRL-CAD very nice, and usable, without readin 500 page.
00:25.46 brlcad like I said, we should work now on haiku, at least 99% of our codebase should work just fine
00:26.01 brlcad the latter takes a long time
00:26.30 miqlas I like to see more app on Haiku platform, to make it usable for wide userbase, and we need good, stable, and lightweight apps. I know, the BRL-CAD is a "monster", but i hope on someday it will work correctly with Haiku.
00:27.12 brlcad miqlas: think of it more like 400 lightweight apps, that is how it is designed
00:27.12 Ralith BRL-CAD is a highly portable monster.
00:28.06 brlcad miqlas: the fact that we put them all together is more for distribution convenience, but brl-cad really is a collection of a LOT of applications .. not just one 'monster' application
00:28.17 miqlas I read the comments of the mplayer guys, and an developer told: The BeOS and Haiku is a C++ crap, and he don't want support it. Please, never tell anything like this. Lot of people working on this project for free, and i like this os.
00:28.47 brlcad heh, not likely
00:28.58 brlcad i'm an old-time beos fan, big fan
00:29.10 miqlas Then if You don't tell Haiku will never be supported, You can get the assembly for free, with MIT. Thanks.
00:29.12 brlcad seeing it survive in any form is a 'good thing'
00:29.46 brlcad used to run beos as his primary desktop back in the day
00:29.53 brlcad for the little while it lasted
00:29.58 Ralith brlcad: what attracts you to it?
00:30.07 brlcad Ralith: ooof!
00:30.11 brlcad what didn't!
00:30.19 *** join/#brlcad BigAToo (n=BigAToo@pool-96-230-124-67.sbndin.btas.verizon.net)
00:30.21 miqlas brlcad, the BRL-CAD was running on BeOS?
00:31.21 miqlas Ralith : you can check it with Your own eyes, download the image, and write it to Your flashdrive (500 mb is enough) and boot it. It is very cool.
00:31.42 brlcad an OS designed from the ground up ditching most of the baggage we have today, geared for absurdly high performance, insane interactivity, impressive filesystem, multithreading dream
00:31.50 Ralith miqlas: don't have that much time atm, and I'd be surprised if it supported my hardware.
00:32.06 Ralith brlcad: sounds cool. Insane interactivity?
00:32.09 brlcad miqlas: haiku is getting there, but still not yet nearly as impressive as beos was during r5
00:32.14 ``Erik fully threaded micro?
00:32.51 miqlas Haiku: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccniJHjo_Uw and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7vM1Gc6_po
00:33.05 miqlas Fully threaded, and it use microkernel.
00:33.06 brlcad Ralith: no matter what you were doing, the system stayed responsive .. nay a hiccup
00:33.10 Ralith oo
00:33.11 Ralith cool!
00:33.13 brlcad like playing a half-dozen movies
00:33.17 brlcad all simultaneously
00:33.24 Ralith and haiku is a reimpl?
00:33.27 brlcad rendered to the faces of a spinning cube
00:33.34 brlcad while playing music
00:33.34 Ralith wow, way back then?
00:33.38 Ralith jesus
00:33.44 brlcad and on an all pentium 200
00:33.45 Ralith how did that manage to fail
00:33.49 brlcad s/all/old/
00:33.57 brlcad marketing and microsoft
00:34.01 ``Erik toyed with haiku, never tried be itself, though
00:34.13 miqlas BeOS (mother of Haiku) was closed source.
00:34.22 ``Erik bebox was a neat machine
00:34.36 ``Erik dual cpu when it was unheard of
00:34.44 ``Erik and awesome load LED bars on the front :D
00:34.59 miqlas Yes :)
00:35.39 Ralith now you've got me interested
00:35.39 brlcad haiku is a pretty cool reimplementation, it covers almost all of the original API, included binary compatibility, and has even started to add their own improvements
00:35.41 Ralith miqlas: how's the HW support?
00:35.48 miqlas BeOS on dual 300Mhz PII: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qv6twfh2SgI
00:36.01 brlcad that's the only hard part af the moment, they're not fully stable, but there is a 1.0 release coming out soon
00:36.09 brlcad hardware is hit or miss
00:36.42 brlcad and their performance certainly isn't up to par with beos in most areas, but then they're working mostly on functional first
00:36.42 miqlas Ralith : always better and better. It have native sound + OSS, FreeBSD like net_stack
00:36.47 Ralith I wish I had reason to believe alternative OSs had a chance :/
00:36.59 Ralith beyond the unixen./
00:37.06 brlcad their API is still pretty much considered to be one of the best-designed APIs ever
00:37.42 Ralith wow damn that was a fast bootup
00:37.53 Ralith pretty GUI too
00:37.54 brlcad all GUI applications were inherintly multithreaded for example
00:37.59 brlcad without the dev doing anything really
00:38.14 miqlas I have AMD 3000+ Sempron, 1Gb ram, and Haiku boot up under 3-4 seconds.
00:38.14 brlcad which kept all apps responsive even under heavy load
00:39.03 Ralith wants :(
00:39.07 miqlas It can use more core / more CPU. And You can enable/disable them in runtime.
00:39.14 brlcad yeah, fast bootups were a beos philosophy -- it was originally almost instantaneous (like less than a second), but even less than 5sec to usable in latter years -- haiku preserves that (woo hoo)
00:39.49 miqlas Ralith, if You interrested, go to #haiku chanel, here on the Freenode IRC.
00:40.05 Ralith miqlas: is there any interest in ELF support?
00:40.18 miqlas Sorry, i don't understand.
00:40.28 miqlas Haiku have ELF binaries.
00:40.28 Ralith linux binaries
00:40.33 Ralith oo
00:40.34 brlcad loves the old Be API call.. is_computer_on_fire();
00:40.38 Ralith haha
00:40.39 Ralith wassat do
00:40.43 brlcad and the other, is_computer_on();
00:40.49 miqlas BeOS have ELF binaries too.
00:41.01 Ralith miqlas: cool! Is there Any interest in
00:41.01 miqlas is_computer_on() is cool too.
00:41.02 Ralith er
00:41.11 brlcad it returns the temperature of the motherboard if the computer is on fire :)
00:41.12 Ralith is there any interest in a linux ABI layer?
00:41.13 Ralith a la freebsd
00:41.20 Ralith brlcad: hehe ^^
00:41.23 miqlas What is ABI?
00:41.27 brlcad the devs had a fantastic sense of humor
00:41.32 Ralith awesome!
00:41.32 brlcad application binary interface
00:41.45 Ralith miqlas: basically, a layer that'd allow linux binaries to run directly.
00:41.51 Ralith FreeBSD has one, and it's handy.
00:42.01 Ralith it'd make it much easier for Haiku to pick up new apps.,
00:42.03 brlcad they're a ways away from that
00:42.05 Ralith at least in binary form.
00:42.08 miqlas Sorry, Ralith, but i'm not a developer, i can't say anything about it. Ask the Haiku dev-s on #haiku.
00:42.08 brlcad it doesn't run X11
00:42.24 Ralith hm.
00:42.26 brlcad so many apps would be useless to it anyways
00:42.28 miqlas I think it is not a good idea. It will be a monster...
00:42.28 Ralith it has its own display stuff, doesn't it?
00:42.42 brlcad cept for command-line apps, which are generally easy to port regardless
00:42.58 brlcad yeah, sort of like mac os x having a custom display system
00:42.59 Ralith I guess a wrapper API might be feasible, but that's getting to be a wine-scale project.
00:43.00 miqlas X11 is portable, and we have an old X11, but we don't like the apps, that require X11.
00:43.10 brlcad yet being unixy under the hood
00:43.29 Ralith miqlas: the problem is, as cool as haiku is, I can't see it ever being of more than academic interest :/
00:43.38 Ralith it's just so hard for an alternative OS to take off
00:43.51 Ralith maybe in twenty years when everyone's using inherently portable code...
00:43.52 brlcad nah, it's a pretty active project with a lot of momentum
00:44.13 brlcad you don't hear about it much only because they're working towards that "first release"
00:44.16 Ralith does that mean much, when it comes to wider acceptance, even in the long term?
00:44.23 miqlas Ralith: , i know, this is why i want BRL-CAD for Haiku.
00:44.33 Ralith miqlas: I suppose niche environments is a good place to start.
00:44.42 Ralith make it 'the ultimate CAD platform' and you'd get users.
00:45.15 ``Erik the fbsd linuxulator brings its own problem (mostly linux apps being ... well, wrong... improper ELF format, etc)
00:45.24 brlcad Ralith: the philosophies of the operating system itself and the APIs make it very appealing to most developers
00:45.33 Ralith ``Erik: it usually works, though. Even on big stuff.
00:45.46 ``Erik after some fussing to unfuck the binaries, yeah
00:46.04 brlcad beos had a pretty substantial developer following, and those devs are still around -- many will gladly jump back on board with the development environment is stable enough to work in
00:46.06 ``Erik that i have to do "brandelf -t linux /some/binary" is bad
00:46.11 Ralith brlcad: hm, I imagine that'd help, but, well... look at WinAPI vs. unix APIs. Quite a big margin, but windows won out originally, and it's taking ages to win back.
00:46.23 brlcad until the 1.0 release, it's a bit of a time drain because you have to wade through other issues
00:46.36 miqlas I don'tlike the Linux philosophy, for example there is ProE, but if You have wrong libc, You can't run, there is lot of branches, lot of distros, there is no unified thing.
00:46.44 Ralith miqlas: yeah linux has lots of problems
00:46.47 Ralith I'm not saying it's good.
00:46.51 Ralith but it's successful.
00:46.54 Ralith (and an improvement on windows)
00:47.43 ``Erik "less bad than windows", aim for the stars, man ;) *duck*
00:47.52 brlcad Ralith: it also depends how you determine "won out" .. if you're talking about massive > 50% popularity, sure -- in that regard unix was never really even a contender
00:48.20 brlcad old mac os (before os x) was the only real contender, and be os for all of a year
00:48.44 brlcad latter being arguable at that
00:48.51 Ralith brlcad: well, I can't easily see a fourth unique OS easily making more than 1%.
00:49.09 ``Erik you're gonna irk an amiga fan somewhere talkin' like that, brlcad :)
00:49.14 Ralith lol
00:49.21 brlcad good!
00:49.29 brlcad people should be irk'd more about their OS
00:49.46 brlcad they waste a lot of our time, more than many of the apps run on them
00:50.29 Ralith heh
00:50.44 miqlas Guys, what You think about CATIA V6?
00:50.58 Ralith In Jan 31, 2009, Haiku obtained a native GCC4 port; this allows modern applications, like Firefox 3, to be built on Haiku.
00:51.01 Ralith ooooh.
00:51.02 ``Erik windows has set the bar awfully low :( it's not acceptable to have to pop the hood and fiddle with the engine every time you want to drive somewhere, or bust out the multimeter whenever you want to watch tv... but *shrug*
00:51.14 Ralith ``Erik: I agree.
00:51.17 Ralith but it's where we are.
00:51.24 brlcad miqlas: about the same as what I think about a tree stump
00:51.50 miqlas What You think about the tree stump?
00:51.52 brlcad kind of an open-ended bait question :)
00:51.58 ``Erik you... want to build a treehouse on catia?
00:52.00 brlcad depends entirely what we're talking about
00:52.23 miqlas BRL-CAD is parametric or not?
00:52.42 brlcad no, parametric support is being worked on now
00:52.48 brlcad ~seen madant
00:52.50 ibot madant <n=d@117.196.133.180> was last seen on IRC in channel #brlcad, 2d 10h 21m 48s ago, saying: 'so not so much a of NEWs maybe.. '.
00:52.54 miqlas Wow! I like the parametric modelling.
00:52.56 brlcad by that guy
00:53.42 brlcad this is his work planned for this summer: http://brlcad.org/wiki/User:Homovulgaris
00:53.53 miqlas Is tehere any kinematic solver in BRL-CAD?
00:53.57 brlcad (low-level developer speak)
00:54.05 brlcad there is a very very basic one
00:54.47 ``Erik the joint constraint stuff?
00:54.48 brlcad it's a basic forward-kinematic system
00:54.50 brlcad yeah
00:57.56 miqlas brlcad: thanks for the informations, an Guys thanks for the talk. But now here is 02:57.
00:58.00 miqlas I need to sleep.
00:58.03 Ralith seeya
00:58.17 brlcad cya
00:58.55 miqlas brlcad : morning i try to convert the assembly to step,and i send to You.
00:59.24 brlcad okay, awesome
00:59.27 ``Erik night, miqlas :)
00:59.37 miqlas Night for everybody.
01:00.55 Ralith damn, haiku looks really cool.
01:01.01 Ralith wants to play with it now.
01:01.02 miqlas ;D
01:01.10 Ralith hmm.
01:01.21 Ralith does anyone know if AMD ever made good on their promise to open their hardware docs?
01:01.31 Ralith for the video cards
01:01.36 Ralith for 3D accel
01:02.08 miqlas Ralith: : http://www.haiku-os.org/community/forum/how_to_install_haiku_to_usb_flash_drive_from_windows
01:02.47 Ralith miqlas: I'm not on windows :P
01:02.50 Ralith unfortunately.
01:03.24 Ralith is there a list of supported hardware out there anywhere?
01:03.31 ``Erik grab qemu and set it up with something boring? :)
01:03.45 Ralith hehe
01:03.46 miqlas sudo dd if=haiku.image of=/dev/sda (SDx is a DEVICE, not a partition!!)
01:03.50 Ralith that's not as fun as running it natively
01:04.04 *** join/#brlcad poolio (n=poolio@bz.bzflag.bz) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]
01:04.05 Ralith miqlas: I'd rather not overwrite my system.
01:04.29 miqlas Ralith : http://haikuware.com/hardware-database/
01:06.45 miqlas My Haiku desktop: http://mellbimbo.eu/view-d77595203e5fcf31336d52acff527378.html
01:06.46 ``Erik huzzah, my ld is brokne
01:06.53 Ralith miqlas: can it, theoretically, do 3D accel?
01:07.02 Ralith assuming someone writes a driver
01:07.19 miqlas There is software and hardware accelerated (Nvidia) OGL.
01:07.37 miqlas Software powered by MESA.
01:07.42 Ralith ...WHAT
01:07.48 Ralith how did they pull that off
01:08.01 miqlas Sorry, i don't understand.
01:08.08 Ralith how did they get 3D accel on nvidia hw?
01:08.18 miqlas It is a magic :)
01:08.25 Ralith explainnnnn
01:09.06 miqlas MESA software rendering attached to low level nvidia driver,
01:09.12 Ralith no I mean
01:09.16 Ralith how did they write an nvidia driver
01:09.21 Ralith that's undocumented hw
01:09.25 brlcad miqlas: heh, cute desktop
01:09.28 miqlas Reverse engineering is the answer.
01:09.36 Ralith that's some crazy reverse engineering
01:09.42 Ralith how many cards does it support?
01:10.23 miqlas Another desktop by me: http://mellbimbo.eu/view-f823600c444123689f6a1864e8e812bd.html (old!)
01:10.38 miqlas Up to 8600Gt, if i know correctly.
01:11.34 Ralith jesus
01:11.40 Ralith both my laptop and my desktop would be supported!
01:11.48 Ralith I'm totally installing this in dual-boot if I can work out how
01:12.25 miqlas Ralith : http://haiku.it.su.se:8180/source/xref/src/add-ons/kernel/drivers/graphics/nvidia/driver.c <- supported cards.
01:12.30 Ralith ty
01:12.40 Ralith er
01:12.41 Ralith AGP :|
01:12.47 Ralith no PCIe?
01:13.58 brlcad Ralith: keep in mind .. this is basically "pre-alpha"
01:14.04 Ralith brlcad: I know
01:14.18 Ralith I'm utterly amazed it has nvidia support
01:14.40 Ralith just thinkign about how awesome it'd be to have full accel.,
01:14.42 miqlas I don't have PCIe, only AGP, but i tested my roomates's computer, it works with PCIe
01:14.47 Ralith ooo
01:14.54 Ralith :D
01:15.19 Ralith any tips on rigging grub up for it?
01:15.40 miqlas Ralith: , sorry i don't understand Yopu :(
01:16.00 Ralith grub's a bootloader suitable for dualbooting
01:16.24 miqlas Yes, but i never tested it with Haiku. I thin it require chainload setting.
01:16.43 Ralith any docs you can point me at?
01:16.51 Ralith I'm eager to try this, but not so much to make my system unbootable >_>
01:17.07 Ralith though I suppose only so much can go wrong if I get the partition resizing right
01:17.23 miqlas http://www.haiku-os.org/documents/dev/installing_haiku_to_a_partition_from_linux
01:17.48 Ralith perfect!
01:17.49 Ralith thanks.
01:18.13 Ralith now I just need to find some time to tweak my partition scheme.
01:18.35 miqlas This tell, how to build, but You don't need build it, there is precompiled images on the net here: http://haiku-files.org/raw/
01:19.06 Ralith oo, nightlies
01:19.30 Ralith brbs for food
01:20.13 miqlas Nvidia informations: http://haiku.it.su.se:8180/source/xref/src/add-ons/kernel/drivers/graphics/nvidia/README.html
01:20.42 miqlas last updated on June 10, 2008...
01:20.49 miqlas Night, Guys!
01:21.09 miqlas Ralith : be careful, don't make a brick from Your computer :)
01:29.44 *** join/#brlcad LarsG (n=lars@nusnet-216-60.dynip.nus.edu.sg)
01:34.20 yukonbob hello, cadheads
01:45.17 Ralith miqlas: so long as it doesn't scramble my nvram or something.
01:52.41 *** join/#brlcad dreeves_ (n=IceChat7@64.178.177.71)
02:38.06 *** part/#brlcad pacman87 (n=pacman87@resnet-46-40.dorm.utexas.edu)
02:38.15 *** join/#brlcad pacman87 (n=pacman87@resnet-46-40.dorm.utexas.edu)
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03:33.18 *** part/#brlcad LarsG (n=lars@nusnet-216-60.dynip.nus.edu.sg)
04:26.03 starseeker Ralith: one thing to remember about Haiku - if Gtk/Qt are ported to it cleanly, that gives you a LOT of the better open source programs almost for free.
04:26.23 Ralith true.
04:26.34 starseeker the difficulty with one "free" OS taking on another is usually the "user experience" is the same
04:26.46 starseeker e.g. Gnome/KDE/Windowmaker/etc. on top of X
04:26.53 Ralith not so, here.
04:27.07 starseeker mm?
04:27.23 Ralith er, haiku doesn't use those.
04:27.27 starseeker right
04:27.28 Ralith unless I'm drastically misled.
04:27.39 Ralith plus there's the whole instaboot thing
04:27.45 starseeker that's the key - it is potentially a radical improvment in desktop experience
04:27.57 Ralith yeah, I think it's really got my attention.
04:28.12 Ralith looks like it, infact, does *not* have 3D accel anywhere yet, though.
04:28.26 Ralith no surprise, but it'd've been neat
04:28.37 starseeker X plus $KERNEL "feels" the same - BeOS gui + massive multithreading is better :-)
04:28.37 starseeker ah, right
04:28.47 starseeker would not expect 3D accel yet
04:29.19 starseeker even on Linux that only works "well" with nvidia drivers
04:29.23 Ralith indeed.
04:29.31 Ralith though I imagine it won't be long till the AMD docs are implemented.
04:29.38 starseeker grins
04:29.40 Ralith ?
04:29.46 starseeker that will be AWESOME
04:29.54 Ralith er, why?
04:29.59 Ralith I mean, more hardware support is good and all...
04:30.08 starseeker will make his next graphics card purchase an AMD card if they do have proper open drivers
04:30.20 Ralith I suppose it is a pretty big first.
04:30.27 Ralith it looks like there's an effort to port gallium3d to haiku
04:30.38 Ralith so I'm hoping that someone'll port the AMD drivers to that, once they exist
04:30.45 Ralith and then the haiku devs won't have to do anything else
04:30.52 Ralith they seem to be taking a very pragmatic attitude to hardware support
04:31.01 starseeker oh, I should think that'll be a logical (in fact, THE logical) target
04:31.24 starseeker the only other candidate is probably opengraphics, if they ever get off the ground
04:31.25 Ralith ported OSS for sound, wrapping FreeBSD drivers for wifi and networking...
04:32.06 Ralith starseeker: that's their own hardware, isn't it?
04:32.15 starseeker which, opengraphics?
04:32.17 Ralith yeah
04:32.48 starseeker that's these guys: http://wiki.opengraphics.org/tiki-index.php
04:32.55 Ralith yeah, I'm looking
04:32.59 Ralith looks like hardware to me
04:33.03 starseeker yep
04:33.18 Ralith that'd be neat but, well, I doubt it'll compare to the big two's products.
04:33.26 starseeker won't be up to latest AMD/NVIDIA specs, but a truly open and well supported driver would be Very Nice
04:33.35 Ralith indeed.
04:33.43 Ralith but only for a subset of uses.
04:33.43 starseeker particularly with regards to stability
04:33.47 starseeker sure.
04:33.56 starseeker but that subset probably includes most desktop level effects
04:34.01 Ralith true, true
04:34.03 starseeker ala enlightenment bling
04:34.09 Ralith enlightenment runs in software :P
04:34.16 starseeker for now :-)
04:34.16 Ralith at least, last time I checked.
04:34.30 Ralith but yes, bling is good.
04:34.32 starseeker iirc, he claims to get better performance that way because linux 3d support sucks so bad
04:34.40 Ralith heh
04:34.44 Ralith actually
04:34.46 Ralith I talked with a dev about it
04:34.51 Ralith it's not cuz linux 3d support sucks, iirc
04:34.58 starseeker oh really?
04:34.59 Ralith it's cuz running multiple OpenGL contexts in parallel sucks I think?
04:35.03 starseeker ah
04:35.20 Ralith cuz all hardware is designed on the assumption that there's only one
04:35.23 Ralith even though that's not spec
04:35.46 starseeker enter opengraphics - where you can fix the design yourself :-)
04:36.15 starseeker has a hope that a working opengraphics design might be (eventually) compressed to be a sort of default "on motherboard" option
04:36.34 starseeker vga on steroids or some such
04:36.54 starseeker then you can add in the big bad commercial boys for heavy duty 3D accel
04:37.56 starseeker interesting statement here: http://www.fsf.org/blogs/community/help-the-open-graphics-project
04:38.05 starseeker has also had thoughts about "fully open" computers
04:39.46 starseeker heh - someone should design a computer case as an open cad model
04:40.52 Ralith that wouldn't be hard
04:40.59 starseeker well, a good one would take some work
04:41.00 Ralith especially if you didn't mind how it looked
04:41.09 starseeker it must look awesome :-)
04:41.14 Ralith aw.
04:41.57 starseeker call it... OpenCase ;-)
04:43.44 starseeker then you could use an OpenSparc cpu - make an "OpenSparc Inside" sticker :-P
04:44.05 starseeker wonders if anyone manufactures those, come to think of it
04:48.29 starseeker via has the OpenBook model, but that's for a laptop
04:48.35 starseeker also need a desktop
04:50.54 Ralith still, pretty good start.
04:51.28 starseeker it is
04:51.35 starseeker a LOT of pieces needed though
04:51.39 Ralith especially considering the corporate backing.
04:51.47 Ralith true, but we seem to be on the way...
04:51.59 starseeker for a truly open motherboard, for example, would need...
04:52.09 starseeker open RAM chips
04:52.16 starseeker open CPU socket design
04:52.24 Ralith open ICs in general seems like it'd be kind of hard :/
04:52.47 Ralith unless a cascade of openness sweeps across the hardware industry
04:53.51 starseeker well you would need at least one of every key part of the system
04:53.59 starseeker openhardware has some
04:55.18 starseeker even if you had all the designs, the trick would be getting the parts made
04:55.25 starseeker the up front costs are huge
04:56.30 starseeker maybe someday though - there are still some really good hardware hackers lurking out there
04:56.35 Ralith yeah, which is why I don't see it happening unless someone talks the corporations into it.
04:56.39 starseeker nods
04:56.44 Ralith but that's been done before.
04:56.47 Ralith many times.
04:56.56 Ralith albeit not inhardware, most cases.
04:56.59 Ralith but hey, then there's via!
04:57.31 starseeker it would probably need to be someone who needed the component for some non-traditional purpose and was willing to do an open design to get it cheap
04:58.20 starseeker if the Haiku guys can eventually get the old BeOS performance on low(er) end hardware, it might help to make a truly open computer viable
04:58.35 Ralith any old BeOS devs working on the project?
05:00.31 starseeker dunno
05:01.19 starseeker one idea I'm sorry no one put forward before Oracle bought Sun was to suggest Sun expand its open hardware program to include entire older generation PC specifications
05:01.33 starseeker Ralith: probably old BeOS devs would have IP issues
05:02.25 Ralith the people who might care are still around?
05:02.43 starseeker you mean BeOS devs?
05:02.55 starseeker or you mean Oracle/Sun?
05:03.04 Ralith BeOS
05:03.15 Ralith of course the people who care about open hardware are around :P
05:03.37 starseeker sure - but I'm guessing Sun would have been more willing to entertain the idea before they got bought
05:04.03 starseeker I'd imagine there are some of the old BeOS devs floating around, but I don't really know
05:04.14 starseeker eeek. OK, must sleep now
05:05.37 Ralith kk, night
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08:33.54 miqlas brlcad : are You here?
08:40.45 Ralith miqlas: that driver you linked me was for 2d -_-
08:41.17 miqlas Ralith, if You check the readme, it tells there is basic 3d support for some older videocard.
08:41.31 Ralith miqlas: 'basic 3d support for some older videocard' is not 3D accel.
08:41.42 miqlas "Basic 3D acceleration for older cards: see the seperately available 3D accelerant's documentation for details;"
08:42.02 Ralith also, not only is that a 2d driver, it's an unmaintained one which stopped working some time ago, according to #haiku.
08:42.21 Ralith as part of the move to Mesa 7
08:42.32 Ralith which does support acceleration, but has no implementations of it.
08:42.36 miqlas Sorry, i can't know everything :)
08:42.49 Ralith 'k
08:43.05 Ralith nevertheless, cool looking OS.
08:43.18 miqlas But it give bigger score in OGLTeapot :)
08:48.29 Ralith sleeps
08:51.29 miqlas what is the good word for an technican draw? It is good for assembly? Sorry, the english is not my native language..
08:56.28 Ralith miqlas: diagram? blueprint? People just say 'technical drawing' most of the time, I think.
08:57.24 miqlas This is a 3d cad assembly. The "CAD assembly" good for this?
08:57.55 miqlas And i need change the MIT license text? (software -> CAD assembly)?
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08:59.07 Ralith If in legal text, I'd refer to it with more encompassing terms, e.g. 'CAD file'
08:59.22 Ralith and the MIT license may be best left alone, but for a definitive answer wait for brlcad
08:59.29 Ralith (i.e. used as-is)
08:59.37 Ralith (but I'm sure it can wait a few hours for him to show)
09:00.59 miqlas Okay.
09:01.05 miqlas I need to go now.
09:01.06 miqlas Bye!
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09:24.40 mafm_ hi there
09:45.39 pacman87 morning, mafm
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10:32.18 d-lo Mornin all!
10:43.35 mafm mernin
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14:27.41 starseeker took a stab at Haiku + vmplayer, but must wait due to needing to play with kernel modules
14:31.18 ``Erik http://blogs.zdnet.com/community/?p=234
14:31.31 brlcad yep, just finished reading it :)
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14:32.19 brlcad howdy hippieindamakin8
14:33.08 ``Erik the different perspective and explicit pointing out of correlations and implications may help some people *shrug* :) I figured it may be valuable for some folk to read
14:34.47 brlcad yeah, few key sentences in there
14:34.56 CIA-28 BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r34304 10/brlcad/trunk/src/conv/: ignore prodigal binaries
14:36.23 hippieindamakin8 hey brlcad :)
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15:02.42 ``Erik *headache* why won't people just fucking let waterfall die
15:03.30 _clock_ didaktik je vsudypritomny
15:11.18 brlcad hippieindamakin8: question about your patch -- did you test that on anything?
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15:54.41 hippieindamakin8 brlcad, not on a test object,just checked for compilation errors. planned on doing it post endsemester exams
15:54.50 brlcad ah, okay
15:55.39 hippieindamakin8 i ll get back to u on 30th after testing it . sorry for not doing that
15:56.03 brlcad it's okay
15:56.32 brlcad i was just looking at myself, and didn't look like it'd compile
15:56.44 hippieindamakin8 thanks
15:59.19 hippieindamakin8 brlcad, is it ?
16:01.08 hippieindamakin8 i ll just verify everything and get back to you then. with the results
16:03.41 madant hippieindamakin8: 30th is the D-day ? getting out of iit finally ;) ?
16:03.57 hippieindamakin8 madant, no :)
16:04.08 hippieindamakin8 i dropped a course just before the endsems
16:04.24 madant damn, what do you have to do then ?
16:04.30 hippieindamakin8 it is better to drop it rather than flunk it. so i ll do it next semester
16:05.02 madant yikes, so you have to stay a semester for a course :O ?
16:05.12 madant you were dead sure you were going to flunk it :O ?
16:05.43 hippieindamakin8 madant, yeah the prof the last time when he took the course gave an F at the average score.
16:06.13 madant thinks psycho profs are the bane of good education :D
16:10.35 hippieindamakin8 madant, its the other way round. they dont want people to fiddle around with the real world stuff with this average knowledge
16:11.33 madant never had that bad or good profs :)
16:12.21 madant brlcad, though art my mentor :) and elena goes to d-lo ?
16:12.41 madant oops i meant thou art my mentor .. :D
16:13.59 hippieindamakin8 is compiling the package again
16:16.41 brlcad madant: for logistics tracking, yeah
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16:17.38 brlcad hippieindamakin8: yeah, BU_PTBL_INS doesn't look right
16:18.09 madant brlcad: awesome :) i'll get my act together immediately
16:19.44 hippieindamakin8 it is of the type int , but in this file tankill-g.c it has been used this way: /* save the face in a table */
16:19.44 hippieindamakin8 <PROTECTED>
16:21.21 brlcad well, it's going to crash -- you never initialize the nmg_vertices (or any of th bu_ptbl's)
16:22.29 brlcad similarly, you don't allocate or initialize the struct vertex
16:23.13 hippieindamakin8 brlcad, oops i ll just correct the code and send it to you
16:23.25 hippieindamakin8 brlcad, just discard it for now.
16:23.43 brlcad okay
16:23.47 CIA-28 BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r34305 10/brlcad/trunk/src/librt/primitives/nmg/nmg_misc.c: ws, indent, style consistency cleanup
16:23.49 brlcad otherwise, it looks like you were going down the right track I think
16:24.41 hippieindamakin8 yeah i was in a hurry not to care abt the memory issues. i ll just add them up. and submit the patch agaon
16:26.05 brlcad hippieindamakin8: there's an old junk routine that does almost exactly what that routine needs to do
16:26.16 brlcad though it reads from a file iirc
16:26.26 brlcad yeah... nmg_polytonmg()
16:26.31 brlcad in nmg_junk.c
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16:26.51 brlcad there you can see the GET_VERTEX allocation and setting the magic to init it
16:26.59 miqlas Hello brlcad!
16:27.03 miqlas Do You got the mail?
16:27.04 hippieindamakin8 aah i have taken the observations/procedure from ascii to nmg.c
16:27.07 brlcad howdy miqlas !
16:27.08 brlcad yeah, I got it
16:27.16 brlcad fantabulous
16:27.19 miqlas Can BRL-CAD open it?
16:27.31 hippieindamakin8 i ll check nmg_junk.c
16:27.40 miqlas Please, send me a screenshoot about it, if You can...
16:27.42 brlcad heh, not as a step file .. that's the converter presently being implemented :)
16:27.52 brlcad but I can' go through another path and import it to show you
16:28.35 miqlas I can provide .iges and .stl file too.
16:28.51 brlcad that would be awesome
16:28.56 brlcad save me some time
16:29.13 miqlas Do You need the .stl and .iges file?
16:29.30 brlcad yeah, both would be great
16:29.44 brlcad we have importers for those to already
16:30.38 hippieindamakin8 brlcad , right. it is mostly what i need.
16:30.47 miqlas it is cca. 40 mb...
16:31.16 brlcad miqlas: can upload via ftp to brlcad.org/incoming
16:31.32 miqlas okay. i try...
16:31.48 miqlas i'm compressing wit rar, it is ok for You?
16:32.02 miqlas No it is only 4 mb :)
16:32.09 brlcad that's fine
16:32.17 miqlas 40 Mb->4 Mb. Good... :)
16:34.56 miqlas upload finished.
16:35.09 miqlas please, check the archive..
16:35.50 miqlas Can i ask, the USa military use the BRL-CAD yet?
16:36.03 brlcad okay, will check
16:36.07 brlcad yeah, for more than 20 years
16:36.11 brlcad actively using it
16:36.21 miqlas Okay. Thanks.
16:36.49 miqlas brlcad, did You checked the license text? it is good?
16:37.41 brlcad looked good to me
16:38.42 hippieindamakin8 brlcad, madant : see you soon
16:39.03 hippieindamakin8 gets back to studying taking note of what he has to correct in the patch.
16:40.20 brlcad starseeker: you should have access on the site now
16:40.35 brlcad created a new core contributor role that should give nearly complete access
16:40.59 brlcad you basically create a new story and promote it to the main page
16:41.29 brlcad feel free to fix the captcha when you notice the bug.. :)
16:48.51 CIA-28 BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r34306 10/brlcad/trunk/src/librt/primitives/nmg/nmg_junk.c: major cleanup upon remembering nmg_polytonmg() in the junk file. possible approach for a bot-to-nmg routine. while we're in here, clean up the ws/style and rip out all the dead code for heaps and groups.
16:49.46 starseeker brlcad: cool! thanks
16:54.15 CIA-28 BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r34307 10/brlcad/trunk/src/librt/primitives/nmg/nmg_junk.c: add missing headers so the file will actually compile, make all of the routines static just so someone doesn't try to use them, and add a big freaking warning about the routines not being vetted for use yet.
16:55.42 CIA-28 BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r34308 10/brlcad/trunk/src/librt/primitives/nmg/nmg_junk.c: de-knrify
16:56.56 CIA-28 BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r34309 10/brlcad/trunk/src/librt/Makefile.am:
16:56.56 CIA-28 BRL-CAD: enable compilation of the nmg_junk.c source file so that the source can stay in
16:56.56 CIA-28 BRL-CAD: sync with the API. all routines in there are static, so strictly speaking
16:56.56 CIA-28 BRL-CAD: compiling the file isn't necessary, but it will help the sources stay updated.
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17:14.14 d-lo go go gadget brlcad.
17:21.30 brlcad hehe, fantastic.. http://www.tgdaily.com/html_tmp/content-view-42154-181.html
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17:21.53 brlcad hello joe
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19:19.40 CIA-28 BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r34310 10/brlcad/trunk/TODO:
19:19.40 CIA-28 BRL-CAD: topic came up again today, expand on the need for a 3d plot object primitive.
19:19.40 CIA-28 BRL-CAD: ideally/probably needs to support points, lines, polylines, arcs, circles,
19:19.40 CIA-28 BRL-CAD: spline curves, and text. the _plot() callbacks should then return a plot object
19:19.40 CIA-28 BRL-CAD: instead of the current vlist/polyline data that it returns. all sorts of
19:19.43 CIA-28 BRL-CAD: implications and benefits including automatic wireframe LoD and optimized
19:19.45 CIA-28 BRL-CAD: representation.
19:22.48 ``Erik wonders if there's too much duplication in brlcads notional outline... isn't a circle just an arc that goes all the way around? isn't an arc a case of spline? isn't a line a case of spline? isn't a polyline a set of lines? O.o
19:23.43 brlcad yes, mathematically tis true -- but from a modeling and capturing intent perspective, the subclasses are useful to record (and it's much less data)
19:24.11 brlcad it's also pretty much the standard set of specific entities supported by drafting systems
19:24.45 ``Erik hm, but should it be explicitely broken out into seperate entities, or should, say, 'gimmealine()' create a spline that just happsnt o have 0 length control vectors at each endpoint?
19:24.55 ``Erik happens to
19:25.08 ``Erik is the memory savings worth the added complexity?
19:25.42 brlcad you have to have the complexity anyways for the N types, it's rather minimal
19:26.05 brlcad not like they have ray-tracing hooks, for example
19:26.15 brlcad and if we import from another system, it's a faithful import
19:26.23 ``Erik *shrug* I'm just jabbering to try to sound smart :) something that might be worth considering if it hasn't been
19:27.24 ``Erik being able to send that kinda info to the raytracer might be useful once we start adding drafting capabilities
19:28.50 ``Erik (mebbe as a post-frame overlay)
19:32.29 brlcad another possibility would be to have each object be its own object in the db, given them all their own non-geometry entity code ala iges/step/dxf .. but that really goes down a road I'm not keen on
19:33.08 brlcad hm.. http://www.plasticproto.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=26&Itemid=34&lang=en
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19:37.57 brlcad also interesting.. http://www.harmonyware.com/step_supported.html
19:38.57 brlcad basically a subset of that list, the 3D non-surface/non-solid/non-reference entities
19:46.42 ``Erik hehehe "yak shaving" I like that :D
20:02.24 brlcad another option altogether is for _plot() to go away and _brep() take its place
20:05.46 CIA-28 BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r34311 10/brlcad/trunk/TODO: few more entities (thx collada)
20:23.53 ``Erik huh http://smacklet.com/
21:03.43 archivist have you left that page up for a complete period ``Erik :)
21:03.55 ``Erik yeah heh
21:04.00 ``Erik I had "drink coffee" on mine
21:04.01 ``Erik :D
21:04.33 archivist I had a step back from what you are doing (i put nothing)
21:08.46 CIA-28 BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r34312 10/brlcad/trunk/src/librt/primitives/nmg/nmg_junk.c: quell symbol error, nmg_isect_edge3p_shell doesn't exist
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