IRC log for #brlcad on 20090630

00:25.54 alecs1 did I read Qt here? an interface replacing mged written with Qt?
00:26.24 alecs1 fabulous
00:27.49 Ralith indeed
00:27.53 Ralith if the thing'll cooperate with ogre.
00:30.14 alecs1 I wish you best of luck then; found you brl wiki page with google
00:30.20 alecs1 I'll keep an eye on it
00:30.28 alecs1 :)
00:31.17 Ralith thanks
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07:43.40 elena do you know why mged outputs text to stderr when in console mode?
07:43.46 elena i use 7.10.4
07:46.16 elena i ran mged -cr something.g tops
07:46.47 elena it displays: Opened in READ ONLY mode and the top objects.
07:46.58 elena but on stderr.
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11:06.13 d-lo Mornin all!
11:06.17 d-lo *READREADREAD*
11:07.31 d-lo Ralith: Whats the possibility of getting you to write up short blurbs about your ideas/approaches and dropping them in your log on the wiki?
11:09.07 d-lo Ralith: I haven't taken a look at your problem (in code) so I have no idea how complex it would be to extend the Qt Class with the problem with your own homebrew.
11:11.11 d-lo starseeker: Going to the gym nowadays? Rock on!
11:13.05 d-lo ``Erik: Agreed. Goblinsharks are something straight out of a horror flick.
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11:40.34 magesing Hi everyone, Suppose I have modelled a part, and now I want to make a manufacturing drawing so that I can machine it... How do I make the drawing and apply GD&T in BRL-CAD?
11:41.48 louipc magesing: brl-cad doesn't have that capability
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11:43.09 magesing louipc: hmm... that's a shame
11:44.47 magesing Doesn't that kindof limit the utility of brl-cad as a CAD/CAM package? What's the use of designing a part if I have no way of transferring that data to the shop-floor?
11:44.50 louipc yeah I'd like to see brl-cad more capable for drafting... but there needs to be willing and able developers to do that
11:45.49 magesing hmm... I wonder what would be involved... Is it currently possible to render views of parts with visible edges solid and hidden edges dashed?
11:45.50 louipc yeah it totally limits brl-cad
11:46.51 louipc i'm not too sure about that one
11:47.40 louipc you would still need some kind of draft editor, I don't trust computer generated drawings
11:48.12 magesing if that is possible, then it's just a matter of writing a script to generate three orthographic views, then use some sort of external editor to add annotations
11:49.20 magesing probably easiest to make a series of tools for inkscape or the gimp to add the annotations to a monochrome drawing
11:50.35 louipc brlcad already has 2d sketch objects
11:50.46 louipc something from that could be used
11:57.41 magesing louipc: "The rtedge and rthide commands are used for hidden-line renderings similarr to what you'd want for generating drafting documents." --http://brlcad.org/wiki/FAQ
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11:58.38 magesing i.e. I can generate images with rt-edge and rt-hide then use the image editor of my choice to annotate the drawings
12:10.21 louipc I'd opt for different cad software if I had to do that for every drawing though. heh
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13:51.38 CIA-30 BRL-CAD: 03irpguardian * r34903 10/brlcad/trunk/src/proc-db/human.c: Added movement support for the right arm, and made a single function for creating an arm, instead of one for left and right sides.
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15:20.08 CIA-30 BRL-CAD: 03irpguardian * r34904 10/brlcad/trunk/src/proc-db/human.c: Added poseable leg support, up to the thigh and calf, and made a makeleg function to create them.
15:23.41 CIA-30 BRL-CAD: 03bob1961 * r34905 10/brlcad/trunk/src/libged/killrefs.c: Update comments.
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16:32.14 ``Erik effin' made me get a cast
16:54.59 indianlarry /sb/ goto -40
16:55.07 indianlarry oops
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17:24.46 alecs1 hi, archer fails to start with the following error: ERROR: Unable to initialize ArcherCore imagery
17:25.03 alecs1 what could it be?
17:26.00 CIA-30 BRL-CAD: 03bob1961 * r34906 10/brlcad/trunk/src/ (4 files in 3 dirs): Mods related to Archer's undo (i.e. override commands that are not yet supported by undo).
17:33.43 alecs1 ah, I looked now in the archer script and there is no message like this one
17:34.09 louipc odd
17:36.04 louipc alecs1: it's in src/tclscripts/archer/LoadArcherLibs.tcl
17:36.06 alecs1 I'm doing a search in the source directory; google didn't find any message like this
17:36.32 alecs1 thanks, I'll take a look
17:40.07 alecs1 do you know what it means? I have next to 0 brl-cad and tcl experience
17:41.05 ``Erik archer is a work in progress, not ready for consumption yet, last I heard... you might want to use mged instead
17:41.40 louipc looks like it's looking for a tk add-on called 'tkimg'
17:41.48 louipc if you're missing that it won't work
17:41.57 alecs1 thanks, I didn't know; I'll stick to mged then
17:42.27 alecs1 I'll for tkimg then; maybe it helps
17:54.37 CIA-30 BRL-CAD: 03irpguardian * r34907 10/brlcad/trunk/src/proc-db/human.c: Added poseable support for all the leg now, including feet.
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18:41.00 jdoliner indianlarry you here?
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18:53.55 CIA-30 BRL-CAD: 03bob1961 * r34908 10/brlcad/trunk/src/tclscripts/archer/ (Archer.tcl ArcherCore.tcl): Modified archer to ask the user to confirm save and revert requests.
19:11.29 Ralith louipc: it probably would be pretty easy to do something like rtedge with hidden lines dashed
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20:06.39 CIA-30 BRL-CAD: 03homovulgaris * r34909 10/brlcad/trunk/src/libpc/pcMathGrammar.h: FunctionGrammar added to the MathGrammar in preparation for Constraint Grammar definition
20:29.45 elena starseeker, are you here?
20:38.56 elena brlcad?
20:48.01 ``Erik I fed them to the pet squirrel
20:48.36 ``Erik what's up?
20:48.40 elena hopes Erik is kidding
20:48.48 ``Erik it's a big squirrel
20:48.53 elena :)
20:49.12 elena probably got bigger after eating two mens.
20:49.30 elena men (no -s)
20:49.52 ``Erik boys, ya mean
20:50.00 ``Erik sits around being horribly old
20:50.26 ``Erik technically, I am a mentor (getting the t-shirt, anyways), is it something I may be able to help with?
20:50.40 Ralith solve my ogre/qt problem :D
20:50.48 elena i wanted to ask them some suggestions about the metadata that I should/can get from a model.
20:51.01 ``Erik ralith: stop using that c++ crap, problem solved :D
20:51.04 Ralith :[
20:51.40 ``Erik metadata? hm, title and units are probably the big ones, just be careful of .g files with many models, I'd imagine
20:51.40 elena ls -l provides some information about the objects.
20:51.49 elena tree about the structure.
20:52.19 elena ok. indeed, I forgot about units.
20:52.20 ``Erik there're a few different naming conventions that have different meanings, so those might just need to be ignored
20:53.01 elena and since you're so kind, I have one curiosity
20:53.28 elena i noticed today, that when using the console mode in mged
20:53.28 elena output goes to stderr.
20:53.40 ``Erik um, once thing ya see in real models that the army uses is there may be 4 seperate toplevel models of a single thing... depending on if it's csg or triangles, and if it's low resolution or high resolution modelling
20:53.50 elena should it go to stdout (errors and warnings to stderr)
20:53.56 ``Erik by console mode, you mean classic? "mged -c" ?
20:54.00 elena yes.
20:54.51 elena this is in 7.14
20:54.52 ``Erik output of things like rt should go to stderr, I'd think... mged -c can be used in scripts where you want just the right stuff to go to stdout (sometimes to generate data to massage and feed back into mged)
20:55.10 elena i used this
20:55.19 elena mged -c something.g tops
20:55.30 elena that sent the output to stderr.
20:55.47 elena no big problem. just curious about this decision.
20:56.04 ``Erik hrm, that doesn't feel right to me, may've been accidently altered with all the libged stuff :/
20:57.27 ``Erik yeah, it all goes to stderr for me, too hmmmmm
20:58.09 Ralith shoud be easy enough to fix, right?
20:58.11 ``Erik I think that's one to ping brlcad for
20:58.14 Ralith should*
20:58.47 ``Erik you'd think, but display type stuff is abstracted in twisted ways to cope with the tcl/C schism and stuff
20:58.56 Ralith :/
20:59.23 ``Erik and winderz throws a monkeywrench into any simple/clean fd mgmt
20:59.45 Ralith damnit windows
21:00.08 ``Erik *shrug* windows isn't unix... everything else is unix :)
21:00.45 ``Erik I imagine haiku would have its own monkeywrench issues... BRL-CAD is historically a very unix program, starting on 43BSD
21:01.12 ``Erik bought his macbook to have a nice unix laptop with a snazzy gui
21:01.57 Ralith yeah, but at least haiku would be sane about it.
21:02.11 Ralith installed stupmwm to get a snazzy gui
21:02.18 ``Erik I d'no, I imagine it'd have, y'know, c++ involved... *duck* :D
21:02.24 Ralith :P
21:03.03 ``Erik I used to be a big c++ fan, but got away from it and into C in '96-'97, then I got into things like smalltalk and now the c++ mockery of OO annoys me :D
21:03.24 ``Erik and it's easier to be negative and insulting than constructive O:-)
21:03.28 Ralith is taking quite a liking to common lisp, and thus can sympathize
21:03.32 Ralith heh
21:03.42 ``Erik yeah, but CL has its own warts
21:04.27 Ralith I'm interested. What are they?
21:04.30 ``Erik is learning cl, web programming and emacs all at the same time, is apparently mentally masochistic
21:04.42 Ralith I have found that emacs and CL go well together
21:04.51 ``Erik I dislike the lisp1/lisp2 split, having to say #'func is annoying
21:04.55 Ralith and there's a good bit of evidence that CL and webprogramming go well together too
21:05.03 Ralith ah yeah, that
21:05.07 Ralith it
21:05.19 Ralith it's a bit weird and a little inconvenient, but at least it's logical and consistent.
21:05.43 Ralith and it certainly is nice to have roomy namespaces.
21:05.49 ``Erik the documentation is scattered and poorly formatted, and while the third party stuff is insane in breadth and quality, it lacks a decent centralized search/install mechanism and often lacks any viable documentation
21:06.06 Ralith er
21:06.08 Ralith asdf-install
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21:06.27 ``Erik I used that for quite a bit, but then there're version knots
21:06.35 Ralith and the hyperspec seems pretty good doc-wise for me, wrt. cl itself
21:07.07 Ralith version knots?
21:07.09 ``Erik for example, ucw has many things that are ok from asdf, but some require the cvs/svn/darcs/git version
21:07.19 Ralith ah.
21:07.34 Ralith that's just a matter of the asdf repo being outdated
21:07.39 ``Erik thinks if someone took the clhs, unfuglyd it and allowed user comments, a la php.net, that'd be awesome
21:07.47 ``Erik I might do that when I get some free time, in fact
21:07.51 Ralith it is ugly, but it works.
21:07.54 Ralith that'd be neat!
21:08.25 ``Erik it's also not the most newbie friendly community *shrug*
21:08.37 Ralith it was probably written near the beginning of html's popularity, and considered 'good enough' as to need no updating since then.
21:08.45 ``Erik yeah
21:08.46 Ralith hm? I've found #lisp to be a nice enough place.
21:09.08 Ralith people are happy to explain concepts and such
21:09.12 sander^ Hi.. I saw on sourceforge.net that this project needs developers
21:09.34 Ralith sander^: hullo. More dev-work is indeed always good.
21:09.42 ``Erik yeah, they're usually decent if you don't ask stupid questions, but you start reading the flame lists and stuff, or try to get a breadcrumb trail started up, ...
21:09.59 Ralith breadcrumb trail?
21:10.20 ``Erik yeah, the sequence of things to research to get to the next level, that kinda thing
21:10.42 Ralith I think CL's main problem, and the main reason for its lack of popularity in this age of python and ruby and such, is that it has no one central community
21:10.50 ``Erik once you know you want to go from a to b, they'll help you do that, but they won't say what c is
21:10.51 sander^ Ralith, Got any easy tasks I could start doing.. need some help with getting started tho.
21:10.59 Ralith sander^: what's your experience?
21:11.46 Ralith ``Erik: throw together a prettified hyperspec and back that with a newsfeed and a decent forum, and you might go a good ways towards fixing that.
21:11.46 ``Erik sander^: and interests...
21:12.05 sander^ Ralith, I know c,java very well.. abit c++.. Im intrested in learning more c++
21:12.25 Ralith sander^: yeah, it's inadvisable to put work in on code that you're not personally invested in; you'll burn out quick.
21:12.47 Ralith BRL-CAD is mostly C.
21:12.57 ``Erik BRL-CAD is mostly C, a little c++, a smidge of java... a wad of tcl... and some other stuff
21:13.29 sander^ I know tcl very well
21:13.40 ``Erik oh, I'm so sorry :(
21:13.42 ``Erik O:-)
21:13.44 Ralith hehe
21:13.55 Ralith sander^: so, again, what're your interests?
21:13.56 sander^ how much is a wad :p?
21:14.03 Ralith quite a bit.
21:14.14 ``Erik it sounds like you have the background to dig in whereever you want, you just gotta let us know what your interest is :)
21:14.31 ``Erik almost all of the MGED gui is tcl/tk with C backing the operations
21:15.07 Ralith perhaps archer?
21:15.10 ``Erik same with the new archer gui... the ogre/qt experiment is the odd one (and a gsoc project)
21:15.58 sander^ I can go with some c programming
21:16.01 ``Erik assumes sander^ has compiled and installed BRL-CAD, messed around with it some, raytraced something, etc?
21:16.13 sander^ No.. I should do
21:16.26 sander^ I just saw the post on sourceforge
21:17.17 Ralith but where do your *interests* lie?
21:17.57 ``Erik hehehe, this is open source, man, we're not going to TELL you what to do, we're going to help you find what you want to do, then help you go about doing it :D
21:18.37 ``Erik effin' A, sf changed stuff around again
21:19.00 Ralith it is prettier, though, gotta give them that.
21:20.00 sander^ I need to try this program out.. before I can say what my interests are
21:20.08 Ralith do that first, then :D
21:20.11 ``Erik sander^: consider these 3 urls; http://brlcad.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/brlcad/brlcad/trunk/TODO http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=105292 http://brlcad.org/~sean/ideas.html
21:20.13 Ralith afks for a bit
21:20.28 ``Erik do the svn co, then glance over them while it compiles or something :)
21:23.24 sander^ Where do I find the source or whats the svn checkout url?
21:24.27 sander^ Error 500
21:24.28 sander^ We're sorry but we weren't able to process this request.
21:24.35 sander^ When I push "source"
21:24.38 ``Erik http://brlcad.org/wiki/SVN
21:24.59 ``Erik 500? heh, sf broke their server :(
21:26.51 ``Erik you will need automake, libtool, and the X development stuff (as well as a c/c++ compiler).
21:27.23 ``Erik once it's checked out, run the "autogen.sh" script, then the usual ./configure && make all install
21:28.11 ``Erik (and please, if you see room for improvement on the wiki, ... :)
21:47.43 sander^ Why does autogen.sh take that long time?
21:48.09 ``Erik because it runs aclocal, autoheader, automake and autoconf
21:48.27 ``Erik automake has to find and parse every Makefile.am in the system and generate Makefile.in files
21:49.07 elena hei Erik, is there an easy way to supply to commands to mged in command line
21:49.09 ``Erik (that's compiling 256 buildsystem files)
21:49.23 elena like mged -c something.g "tops; title"
21:49.27 ``Erik echo 'cmd 1; cmd 2' | mged -c
21:49.33 ``Erik um, I think that can work
21:49.42 ``Erik or put it in a script and mged -c blah.g < myscript
21:50.49 elena ; didn't seem to work.
21:50.57 elena only the last command is executed
21:51.03 ``Erik hm, might need to be newlines then :/
21:51.06 elena i was able to do it with echo -e "title\\ntops" | mged -c spheres.g
21:51.31 elena it just seemed a bit complicated
21:52.28 ``Erik yeah. I thought semicolon was the seperator :/
21:53.56 elena thank you.
21:54.20 ``Erik ohhhhhh, wait, classic uses its own parser, not the tcl interpreter
21:54.41 elena and?
21:55.16 ``Erik ; is the tcl cmd seperator, I d'no if there's one built into the classic mode mged parser
21:55.54 ``Erik if you don't give it the -c, it should work, I think
21:56.09 elena I need to run it in a batch.
21:56.27 elena if I don't give it -c, it goes in bg
21:56.53 ``Erik how old is your mged?
21:56.59 elena 7.14
21:57.03 elena x86
21:57.54 ``Erik at some point, the default behavior of mged went from going background to staying in the fg, in support of various WM's
21:57.58 elena hmm. same happens in non-classical mode, too
21:58.05 elena i start mged
21:58.06 ``Erik yeah, feb of '08
21:58.10 ``Erik 30246
21:58.25 elena in the command win i type tops;title and only title is run
21:58.35 ``Erik huh, weird
21:59.01 ``Erik yet another thing to fix
21:59.09 elena i guess i'm moving from beginner to advanced level :)
21:59.53 ``Erik and kind enough to observe/ask these little things instead of just shrugging and moving on :)
22:00.35 elena you're too kind
22:00.46 ``Erik I know, and I'm too modest, too O.o *duck* :D
22:01.55 sander^ what do I need to install to get x11 support? Whats.. X development stuff?
22:02.42 Ralith the headers
22:03.09 Ralith in a debian-derived distro it'll be called x11-dev or similar
22:03.21 ``Erik depends on the OS, something like Xlib-dev and Xi-dev would do most rhat/deb based leenewxes, I think
22:03.53 sander^ libx11-dev ?
22:04.00 ``Erik sounds right
22:04.20 Ralith ``Erik: perhaps it would be advisable to replace the classic parser with the tcl interp?
22:04.23 sander^ Im on ubuntu and debian
22:04.37 Ralith libx11-dev is almost certainly correct
22:05.06 ``Erik ralith: the gui version gives the same results, I'm not sure what's going on with it
22:05.13 Ralith O.o
22:05.19 Ralith that sounds undesirable.
22:05.22 ``Erik and I'm not going to dig into it while I'm sitting at home on sick leave enjoying the vicodin
22:05.34 ``Erik which is just about wearing off
22:06.10 sander^ configure: WARNING: X11 support is enabled but the Xi library was not found.
22:06.50 Ralith doesn't know what Xi is used for
22:06.57 Ralith but you can fix that by, you know, installing the Xi library.
22:09.57 ``Erik X intrinsics
22:10.11 elena erik, one more help?
22:10.20 ``Erik hrm?
22:10.43 elena i recall I saw somewhere a way to get the output of a command and use it in another
22:10.58 elena i want to do something like: tree `tops`
22:11.01 ``Erik inside of mged?
22:11.06 elena yes.
22:11.14 ``Erik uhmmm, sure it wasn't tree [tops] ?
22:11.19 elena maybe I'm wrong and it wasn't mged.
22:11.29 elena let me test.
22:11.41 ``Erik it's a direct tcl interpreter, so anything that works in tcl should work in mged
22:12.02 elena it says db_lookup([tops]) failed: [tops] does not exist
22:12.34 ``Erik hm, yeah, I'm dorking in tclsh
22:12.37 ``Erik <-- doesn't really know tcl
22:13.55 elena :(
22:15.21 ``Erik tree [eval tops] ?
22:16.25 sander^ I cant find the xi lib
22:16.37 ``Erik libXi-dev ?
22:16.44 ``Erik do you have /usr/include/X11/Xi.h ?
22:17.39 elena strange. it shows an error, yet it displays some of the objects.
22:17.51 sander^ Oh.. it actually was libXi-dev
22:18.29 elena mged> tree [eval tops]
22:18.30 elena db_lookup(tops]) failed: tops] does not exist
22:18.30 elena ellg
22:18.30 elena axis/
22:21.06 ``Erik *shrug* I don't have the resources handy to figure that one out for ya, sorry :( tomorrow, I'll have access to my books
22:21.17 sander^ I dont have /usr/include/X11/Xi.h still after installing libxi-dev
22:21.43 sander^ And its also still complaining about xi dev even after I installed it
22:27.43 elena no problem. thank you.
22:27.49 sander^ im just compiling without x11 support
22:27.55 elena i'm still half way there :)
22:28.48 sander^ What downsides is it without x11 support?
22:29.12 sander^ no grafical interface?
22:31.35 louipc no mged. You probably want that.
22:36.23 louipc sander^: hmm I don't have Xi.h either
22:36.34 louipc but I do have libxi
22:40.37 sander^ strange that its complaining about it then
22:41.14 louipc what was the message you got complaining about xi?
22:42.04 louipc "X11 support is enabled but the Xi library was not found."?
22:42.09 sander^ configure: WARNING: X11 support is enabled but the Xi library was not found.
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22:48.29 elena eval tree [tops] seems to partially work.
22:49.01 elena the problem is that [tops] gets replaces with the string containing all the tops (not with a list of objects)
22:49.12 elena db_lookup fails again.
22:49.13 sander^ How long time does it take to compile everything?
22:49.24 Ralith depends entirely on your hardware.
22:51.10 sander^ From what to what?.. Like.. Can it take half an hour?
22:51.39 ``Erik anywhere from 5 minutes to 5 hours...
22:51.45 Ralith from the next millenium to instantly.
22:51.51 Ralith it depends entirely on your hardware.
22:52.00 sander^ okay
22:52.07 Ralith I suggest not attempting to use nothing but a pencil.
22:52.36 ``Erik damn, ralith, still sore about that? we thought it was hilarious :D *duck*
22:53.16 louipc sander^: do you have x11proto-input-dev installed?
22:53.29 Ralith ``Erik: at least I know x86 hex now.
22:53.37 louipc /usr/include/X11/extensions/XI.h
22:53.42 ``Erik x86? damnit, boy, we said r2k!
22:53.45 louipc is in that package
22:54.00 ``Erik (r2k is sexy assembly)
22:54.01 Ralith yeah, but I didn't have the test hardware and I was too lazy to find a vm
22:54.12 ``Erik http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~larus/spim.html
22:54.16 ``Erik there, there's your vm
22:54.17 ``Erik :D
22:55.11 sander^ louipc, yes.. I got x11proto-input-dev installed
22:58.57 CIA-30 BRL-CAD: 03Ebautu 07http://brlcad.org * r1520 10/wiki/More_Changelog: /* June, 17 - today */
23:16.16 louipc /usr/include/X11/extensions/XI.h: #define XI_DATAGLOVE "DATAGLOVE"
23:16.22 louipc bwhahahha
23:21.39 sander^ /usr/bin/ld: cannot find -ltk8.5
23:21.52 sander^ collect2: ld returned 1 exit status
23:22.59 sander^ it fails on that when doing make
23:23.46 louipc you have tk 8.5?
23:23.50 ``Erik did the configure stuff say that it was building tk or not?
23:29.48 sander^ now I installed tk-dev
23:30.25 louipc I'm glad I don't use debian :P
23:31.31 sander^ Well.. im actually installing this on my ubuntu laptop without too many programs
23:31.44 Ralith tk-dev won't help
23:31.48 Ralith taht's the headers; it's missing the library.
23:32.05 Ralith (although tk-dev undoubtedly depends on tk, so it might work anyway)
23:32.18 sander^ Build Tcl ............................: yes
23:32.18 sander^ Build Tk .............................: yes
23:32.30 Ralith sounds like a build system bug, then :/
23:32.44 louipc hm. if you have them installed it should say no (using system)
23:32.51 Ralith he doesn't
23:32.55 Ralith he's just now installing them, I think
23:34.49 louipc I'm surprised no debianites have come along and spruced up the build files
23:35.36 ``Erik made a debian/ build thingy a while back, but lost access to his debian box *shrug*
23:37.14 sander^ should it say yes here?: Build Tk .............................: yes
23:37.27 Ralith did it say that after you had installed tk?
23:37.29 sander^ I got tk installed.. and did configure once more
23:37.41 Ralith then it shouldn't want to build its own.
23:37.51 ``Erik um
23:37.54 louipc did you install tcl too?
23:38.06 ``Erik try doing a "make distclean", then do "./configure --enable-all" and see if it works then
23:38.14 sander^ I installed both tcl and tk
23:38.16 Ralith louipc: pretty sure tk depends on tcl :P
23:38.29 louipc yeah it does
23:42.35 sander^ I need to go now..
23:43.05 louipc see you later
23:50.01 *** join/#brlcad Elrohir (n=kvirc@p5B14FC4C.dip.t-dialin.net)
23:58.26 *** join/#brlcad schwinn434 (n=schwinn4@cpe-75-81-202-25.we.res.rr.com)

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