IRC log for #brlcad on 20091216

00:07.51 starseeker is agast at the full size of tkimg...
00:10.08 starseeker aaaand, that's moderately worse
00:10.13 starseeker alrightie then
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01:05.32 starseeker hey Nohla :-)
01:05.42 Nohla starseeker hi
01:06.25 Nohla I was working with eyes closed today :P
01:08.24 starseeker heh
01:08.39 starseeker did your build succeed?
01:12.14 Nohla I think so
01:12.18 Nohla brlcad helped me
01:12.25 starseeker excellent
01:12.35 starseeker you saw how it built the spanish html and pdf?
01:15.17 Nohla starseeker are you always so active at this hour of the night? :)
01:16.16 Nohla (I'm cooking at the same time I aswer you)
01:17.40 starseeker usually
01:19.27 starseeker I will need to leave for a while, so if you have questions now is the time
01:20.22 Nohla :) It's ok for today
01:20.30 Nohla I'm hungry :)
01:20.43 starseeker ok :)
01:20.45 Nohla but thanks
02:39.28 brlcad yawns
02:44.17 Nohla brlcad hi
02:45.09 brlcad hola Nohla
02:48.36 Nohla recordando el español de nuevo? :)
03:14.33 brlcad solo regresa con uso
03:15.58 starseeker brlcad: I wonder how Bob would react if I yank out the dll/so loader function and do traditional package require in Archer :-)
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04:28.59 brlcad starseeker: if it works, doesn't matter
04:29.11 brlcad not sure they're proper packages
04:29.40 brlcad don't recall there being a pkgIndex.tcl for tkimg, could be wrong
04:38.02 brlcad yeah, don't see one -- would have to probably create an init func and the index file at a minimum; basic packaging
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04:58.07 CIA-38 BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r36919 10/brlcad/trunk/src/librt/primitives/bot/ (bot.c g_bot_include.c): quell a slew of verbose compilation warnings about unused params. add sanity checks and unused declarations as needed.
04:59.19 CIA-38 BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r36920 10/brlcad/trunk/src/librt/primitives/brep/ (brep.cpp brep_debug.cpp brep_debug.h): consolidate the three plot debugging sections into just one. remove bunch of unused code, unbust header, quell warnings.
05:04.05 CIA-38 BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r36921 10/brlcad/trunk/src/librt/primitives/bspline/ (nurb_bound.c nurb_knot.c nurb_util.c): quell verbose compilation warnings, sanity check the resource pointer
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06:17.52 starseeker brlcad: not sure how it would work on Windows
06:18.20 starseeker or rather, if our Windows build can do the subconfigure stuff correctly
06:19.27 starseeker tkhtml3 seems to be the first real attempt to do a "proper" install of a package require library to the in-tree tcl/tk - since that's not working on Windows yet it's kinda unexplored turf
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06:45.53 talcite have any of you guys gotten a chance to take a look at the fedora bugzilla? I've run into snags with tkhtml3 and tkImg integration (one bundles licenses, the other static libs) . Is there any chance that we can get around it from this end?
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13:51.44 starseeker blinks - static libs in tkhtml3?
13:51.55 starseeker is he talking about how it builds itself?
14:00.12 CIA-38 BRL-CAD: 03Pt6wub5boj19mxd 07http://brlcad.org * r2052 10/wiki/User:Pt6wub5boj19mxd: New page: Say good-by " she said. He frowned slightly. "All right " he said. She made another speech. "I'm not sorry we kissed " she said. "That was sweet. We should have kissed. [http://cialis-...
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15:57.00 CIA-38 BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r36922 10/brlcad/trunk/src/librt/primitives/cline/cline.c: quell all verbose extra compilation warnings, mostly about unused params. add data validation on those params or mark as unused where appropriate.
15:58.44 CIA-38 BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r36923 10/brlcad/trunk/src/librt/primitives/ (metaball/metaball.c superell/superell.c table.c): remove the stubbed in tnurb functions, as they're all about to go away. these can go away even sooner, though, given the unused parameter warnings they cause.
16:00.32 CIA-38 BRL-CAD: 03Sean 07http://brlcad.org * r0 10/wiki/Special:Log/delete:
16:00.32 CIA-38 BRL-CAD: deleted "[[User:Pt6wub5boj19mxd]]": content was: 'Say good-by " she said. He
16:00.32 CIA-38 BRL-CAD: frowned slightly. "All right " he said. She made another speech. "I'm not
16:00.32 CIA-38 BRL-CAD: sorry we kissed " she said. "That was sweet. ...' (and the only contributor was
16:00.32 CIA-38 BRL-CAD: '[[Special:Contributions/Pt6wub5boj19mxd|Pt6wub5boj19mxd]]')
16:00.44 CIA-38 BRL-CAD: 03Sean 07http://brlcad.org * r0 10/wiki/Special:Log/block: blocked [[User:Pt6wub5boj19mxd]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled, e-mail blocked): Spamming links to external sites
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16:01.31 ``Erik uhm
16:05.55 ``Erik odd
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16:38.41 talcite huh. Got a reply from Toshio at the fedora project.
16:40.16 talcite Essentially I need to fix both tkImg and tkHTML before we can get inclusion. So either I rewrite them to use dynamic libs or we remove the dependencies from brlcad
16:43.53 starseeker removing them is a problem
16:44.05 starseeker what's the trouble with tkhtml3?
16:44.19 starseeker hadn't noticed we were building it static...
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16:59.56 talcite starseeker: oops. sorry, didn't see the message. Yes, tkhtml3 includes static libs afaik
17:00.10 talcite atleast, their website claims to...
17:01.12 starseeker talcite: check src/other/tkhtml3
17:01.35 starseeker they have a static binary of hv3...
17:01.45 starseeker I didn't see any separate build of tkhtml3 at all
17:02.44 talcite hmm. I'll need to look into it more. Maybe they just meant it doesn't have external dependencies
17:04.07 starseeker talcite: were are you getting the tkhtml3 you intend to add to fedora?
17:04.16 talcite starseeker: off the website
17:04.23 talcite brlcad said that there weren't any source changes to it
17:04.48 starseeker ok, but you're doing JUST tkhtml3 and not hv3 right?
17:04.53 starseeker hv3 is more than just tkhtml3
17:04.58 talcite so I was just planning on using native sources instead of abstracting it out of our program
17:04.59 talcite yes
17:05.17 starseeker ok... we might have a few build system changes in our tree, I'm not sure
17:05.40 talcite we can do a diff on them. shouldn't be too tough
17:05.43 starseeker so when you build tkhtml3, you're getting static results?
17:06.26 starseeker 'cause here I get libTkhtml3.0.dylib (Mac)
17:06.29 talcite starseeker: no, the website says it's static. I haven't built and checked for it yet
17:06.56 starseeker talcite: ok, build it and check :-)
17:06.57 talcite starseeker: I don't mean that tkhtml3 is static itself, it contains static libs within it
17:07.15 starseeker I don't know that tkhtml3 contains any libs, just it's own code
17:07.21 starseeker tkimg is a different matter
17:09.10 talcite hmm. Well the website could be out of date or inaccurate. Maybe it was talking about hv3
17:09.54 talcite I'm sure that tkimg contains libs within it though. The release notes have a detailed section about them
17:11.03 starseeker yes
17:11.04 talcite tkimg is the crucial package isnt' it?
17:11.04 starseeker I'd bet hv3 is what they're talking about on the website
17:11.05 talcite I thought tkhtml could be removed in the past
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17:18.39 starseeker talcite: it can be, but you lose html display of man pages in MGED
17:18.52 talcite I see
17:19.05 starseeker talcite: as for tkimg, I'm working on switching us to tkpng
17:19.30 talcite well tkhtml looks like it doesn't have any static libs right now
17:19.40 talcite I need to inspect the makefile, but it looks pretty clean
17:19.44 starseeker we only use a tiny subset of tkimg, so we'll go the smaller, cleaner route (tk 8.6 should actually incorporate tkpng's abilities into the core, so it will go away altogether)
17:19.57 talcite ahh I see
17:20.24 starseeker if you look at our src/other/tkimg it's actually a small subset of the full tkimg
17:21.57 talcite tkpng looks pretty cool
17:22.02 CIA-38 BRL-CAD: 03starseeker * r36924 10/brlcad/trunk/src/archer/archer: If we're doing aqua rendering, go aqua rather than clam for the theme.
17:22.34 talcite starseeker: any idea on when tkpng will be integrated?
17:23.28 brlcad talcite: tkhtml3 doesn't include any 3rd party libs nor does it have any external dependencies except tcl and tk
17:23.45 starseeker talcite: should be before the January src release - I've got a test build working but I need to get it to function with a local libz
17:23.48 brlcad not sure what gave you that impression, the sources are pretty simple ..
17:23.58 talcite brlcad: I see. crazy website =/
17:24.07 talcite yeah. I just looked through the sources
17:24.33 brlcad we didn't make any source changes, but there were a few (minor) build system tweaks for portability
17:24.48 starseeker brlcad: they talk up hv3 (their big mega-browser-thingy) and have big static builds of that as the main download on the project website (sucks)
17:25.05 starseeker they really need to split that sucker into multiple downloads
17:25.14 brlcad and so it'd integrate cleanly with the default automake build rules (e.g., fixing distcheck, distclean, etc)
17:26.21 talcite starseeker: alright. I'll hold off on rebuilding the package till after the january release. tkhtml, Utah, and TNT should keep me busy in the meanwhile
17:27.30 brlcad what was the issue with tkimg?
17:28.25 brlcad our inclusion of tkimg is pretty minimal with no bundled libs, don't recall if we modified it to be that way or if it was originally that way
17:29.00 starseeker brlcad: he would have to make an external tkimg rpm for Fedora
17:29.29 starseeker that would either involve doing tkimg "right" using the main repository, or forking our little subset and making an rpm of IT (which I doubt they would accept)
17:29.59 brlcad he would have to make an external tkpng rpm for Fedora too.. just want to make sure it's not a wash :)
17:30.14 brlcad is ours a subset?
17:30.30 starseeker That would be easier - I gather tkimg stomps all over the Fedora guidelines for included libs
17:30.31 brlcad i vaguely recall tkimg having separate libs for each format
17:30.58 brlcad again, ours has no included libs
17:31.04 brlcad did we do that or is that how it came?
17:31.13 starseeker dunno
17:31.30 starseeker all I can say is when I checked out the tkimg repository it looked almost nothign like ours
17:31.33 brlcad or is it a simple matter like our src/other in that they bundle and it's just there for release control and download convenience for stand-alone compiles
17:32.08 brlcad having the sources shouldn't be a problem, it's whether it uses them during compile or not, and that can be controlled by the rpm
17:32.32 brlcad it looks like we gutted their build system
17:33.03 starseeker nods - if they allow external libs during build it could work - I just don't know if they do - when I ran the default configure here it looked like it walked into all the lib directories (took a while)
17:34.04 brlcad yeah, I don't think an rpm would be that hard at all, the deps shouldn't be a problem
17:34.34 brlcad tkpng could be even simpler still, but I don't see tkimg as a problem if we have to in the meantime
17:35.32 starseeker talcite: um... - is this of interest? http://www.rpmfind.net/linux/RPM/fedora/devel/x86_64/tkimg-1.4-0.6.20091129svn.fc13.x86_64.html
17:36.11 brlcad whether they do or don't "allow" external libs is a really *trivial build matter that wouldn't be hard to change, not an reason to discount it by itself
17:36.11 talcite starseeker: : what the heck? That definitely wasn't there before....
17:36.19 brlcad haha
17:36.21 talcite well 1129.. I guess it saves some work =)
17:37.10 starseeker first rule of solving a problem in open source - make sure someone else hasn't solved it already ;-P
17:37.32 starseeker http://www.rpmfind.net/linux/rpm2html/search.php?query=tkimg
17:37.32 brlcad http://rpmfind.net/linux/rpm2html/search.php?query=tkimg&submit=Search
17:37.44 starseeker hehe
17:37.44 brlcad looks like since fed 9
17:37.47 talcite yeah. I checked both in the existing packages and also in the packages being developed
17:38.06 talcite really? that's strange.
17:38.21 talcite ... it's there
17:38.21 brlcad http://rpmfind.net/linux/rpm2html/search.php?query=tkhtml
17:38.28 talcite arghhh
17:38.44 brlcad ahh, that's not tkhtml3
17:38.50 starseeker will still be switching to tkpng, but it DEFINITELY looks like the rpm need not wait on that
17:39.25 brlcad http://rpmfind.net/linux/rpm2html/search.php?query=tkhtml3 <-- heh, but that is
17:39.28 starseeker Yeah, looks like only Mandriva has tkhtml3
17:39.46 talcite brlcad: yeah, but tkimg was also one of the ones that I had us statically compile because I thought it wasn't in fedora
17:39.46 brlcad interesting that "tkhtml" doesn't match the "tkhtml3" search
17:39.49 talcite I have no idea how I missed that
17:40.12 brlcad looks like your job is done!
17:40.17 talcite err not statically compile, but have us compile from within the project
17:40.22 talcite yeah =S
17:40.26 starseeker checks Utah and TNT...
17:40.41 talcite hmm tkpng is already in fedora. convenient
17:40.54 brlcad TNT doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me as an RPM .. it's just a set of headers
17:41.08 talcite no, utah and tnt aren't there. I just checked again
17:41.10 brlcad nothing to compile
17:41.23 talcite hmm. that's true
17:41.26 brlcad no resulting "library"
17:41.38 talcite I was actually thinking about that the other day. It could possibly only exist as a dev package?
17:41.50 brlcad are there separate -dev packages?
17:41.55 talcite yes
17:42.01 talcite devel to be more precise
17:42.02 brlcad ah, then yeah .. that's all it'd be
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17:42.25 talcite I'm actually curious about how they managed to build tkImg in fedora
17:42.41 starseeker talcite: if I were you I'd not dig in too deep
17:42.44 brlcad with the install amounting to something like "for i in *.h ; do cp $i $INSTROOOOT ; done"
17:42.57 talcite starseeker: haha shooting myself in the foot? =)
17:42.58 starseeker if the notice it's doing something "against policy" you might get elected to fix it :-P
17:43.34 brlcad http://rpmfind.net/linux/rpm2html/search.php?query=RLE&submit=Search+...&system=&arch=
17:44.08 talcite wait. They're using tkimg v1.4
17:44.10 talcite is that even out?
17:44.31 starseeker talcite: it shouldn't matter
17:44.44 starseeker we don't exactly strain tkimg...
17:44.50 talcite well, the thing is that they may have changed the lib inclusion format
17:44.59 talcite between 1.3 and 1.4 I mean
17:45.16 talcite I just checked, the website has 1.3 . What's going on?
17:45.35 starseeker they're tracking subversion (or cvs)
17:45.52 talcite they should put that in the version info if they were
17:46.06 talcite oh wait, they put it in the release stuff. ok
17:46.37 brlcad notes that we're probably the maintainers of URT at this point
17:46.50 talcite really? I thought you guys didn't change it
17:47.05 starseeker he means the original team isn't actively working on it anymore
17:47.37 starseeker hadn't looked at utah rle much...
17:47.40 starseeker googles...
17:47.42 brlcad URT was part of the "Alpha 1" project, which BRL funded back in the day
17:48.18 brlcad Alpha 1 was a larger umbrella project aim at (*drumroll*) developing a NURBS ray tracing capability
17:49.27 starseeker winces
17:49.53 starseeker I don't even see where to download it...
17:50.02 brlcad they got it working, one of the first
17:50.14 brlcad but the project was a bit of a fiasco, though
17:50.25 brlcad got mired in legal problems
17:50.31 starseeker yuck
17:50.43 talcite =/
17:50.44 starseeker leave it to the lawyers...
17:52.05 talcite Utah is clean though right?
17:52.12 starseeker ah, yes... http://www.cs.utah.edu/gdc/projects/alpha1/
17:52.27 brlcad as I understand it (purely anecdotal), BRL threw several million at UofUtah to write the code, they did, then UofUtah told BRL they didn't have rights use ite
17:52.48 brlcad legal battle ensued
17:53.23 starseeker and evidently Utah hung onto it
17:53.30 talcite huh. well that's something
17:54.15 brlcad in the end, I think both sides walked away, UoUtah got a bunch of papers (and money) out of the deal
17:54.47 brlcad utah saw dollar signs when they got it working, wanted to sell it
17:55.14 brlcad apparently licensed it to at least one group, FeatureCAM
17:55.32 starseeker bah. Whatever happened to the idea of universities doing research for the betterment of humanity, not commercial gain?
17:56.10 brlcad that was long before my time, 15-20 years iirc
17:56.54 starseeker and we end up with libutahrle, which I gather is used for format conversion?
17:57.15 brlcad URT was at least released, way back in late 80's
17:57.47 brlcad libutahrle is like libpng, we have a bunch of image processing tools that use it
17:58.14 brlcad looks like 58 tools
17:59.23 brlcad provides fast, simple, and lossless .pix/.bw compression
18:00.19 brlcad worth noting that probably 30-40 of the rle tools are from URT, the rest are ours using libutahrle
18:00.35 starseeker hrm
18:00.58 brlcad useful processing plugins when we get that all working
18:01.55 starseeker where does that leave talcite for making an rpm? Are we now the canonical source?
18:02.21 ``Erik shudders recalling his pcx loader for quake shtuff
18:04.49 brlcad doesn't really affect talcite making an rpm
18:05.31 talcite so no source changes?
18:06.01 brlcad nothing major that should affect integration
18:07.44 brlcad if you really want to cleanest set of sources, that would be ours
18:08.42 brlcad but we already break out librle from the tools
18:09.18 brlcad we're basically 3.1b + minor build tweaks with URT and librle separated
18:10.02 brlcad talcite: the existing RPM is no good?
18:10.33 brlcad http://rpmfind.net/linux/rpm2html/search.php?query=RLE
18:11.28 talcite brlcad: haven't tried yet. I probably need to work from native sources though. The package reviewers would have a fit if they weren't
18:11.54 brlcad that's my point, we could certainly become the native sources
18:12.17 brlcad could set up a proper project for URT, push out a new release
18:12.25 talcite ohhh that's what you mean
18:12.39 brlcad there is no upstream
18:13.05 talcite it'd make things much simpler if we could. At the current situation, I'd be forced to become upstream myself
18:13.55 talcite could we push out a project for utah, nurbs, and STEP?
18:14.05 brlcad spencer isn't at uofutah any longer, there is no upstream
18:15.14 brlcad nurbs I wouldn't want to usurp personally, we're already pushing mcneal's generosity given how we use their toolkit
18:15.22 brlcad STEP we certainly could
18:16.26 brlcad also has no interested/viable upstream, already gave us the go-ahead for takeover a couple years ago
18:16.45 talcite hmm. Alright, I'll talk to the fedora devs about nurbs. Once utah and step are re-released, I'll go ahead and package them
18:17.29 brlcad setting up utah and step projects will probably take a couple weeks
18:18.03 brlcad (given the time of year and all)
18:19.29 starseeker talcite: what do you need for "separate project?" tarball that can build on its own?
18:20.56 talcite preferably its own tracker. Something I can point to when people are looking for sources and bug reports
18:22.06 starseeker uh.. that might as well be our current stuff for BRL-CAD - what would be wrong with tarballs for those two and pointers to our current support channels?
18:23.21 talcite probably not an issue
18:23.36 talcite I'll double check with the fedora devs though
18:23.41 starseeker k
18:24.25 starseeker step already has its own subconfigure - utahrle does not, currently
18:26.12 starseeker gonna have to update the detection logic for step building (or more probably create it, I doubt I did it right the first time)
18:35.40 brlcad step will be pretty easy, urt will need some cleanup to warrant a 3.2 or 4.0 release
18:36.51 brlcad i'll submit a project request to give them a tracker home
18:37.51 brlcad then can link through some subdomains, get basic services set up
18:37.56 starseeker utahrle.sf.net?
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20:16.19 starseeker heh - brlcad got killed by tofu
20:17.21 tofu huh
20:20.50 starseeker just the way the nicks came and went
20:20.55 starseeker is easily amused
20:21.21 tofu fails to locate a valid e-mail for nathan o'brien
20:27.34 CIA-38 BRL-CAD: 03starseeker * r36925 10/brlcad/trunk/ (25 files in 8 dirs):
20:27.34 CIA-38 BRL-CAD: Swap in tkpng for the small subset of tkimg we were previously using - also try
20:27.34 CIA-38 BRL-CAD: to set up tkpng to support 'proper' package require use. Archer appears to be
20:27.34 CIA-38 BRL-CAD: the only app using it at the moment, so remove tkimg loading code and package
20:27.34 CIA-38 BRL-CAD: require tkpng instead. As of this checking tkpng won't build out of box in all
20:27.34 CIA-38 BRL-CAD: cases - the current src/other/tkpng is a pristine 0.9 tarball. Next checking
20:27.36 CIA-38 BRL-CAD: will add specific changes to build logic for BRL-CAD.
20:28.34 starseeker er, whooops - OK not quite pristine
20:31.41 CIA-38 BRL-CAD: 03starseeker * r36926 10/brlcad/trunk/src/other/tkpng/Makefile.in: Whoops, looks like svn helpfully ignored the original Makefile.in
20:32.00 tofu passes distcheck?
20:33.40 starseeker tofu: not yet, working on it
20:34.19 CIA-38 BRL-CAD: 03starseeker * r36927 10/brlcad/trunk/src/other/tkpng/ (Makefile.in configure configure.in): OK, add the tweaks to Makefile.in and configure.in. Shouldn't need the original configure file. This extension should disappear altogether if Tk8.6 brings native support for png.
20:34.58 starseeker tofu: if you want we can revert it until after the release
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21:08.55 starseeker starts distcheck and goes for food
21:19.25 CIA-38 BRL-CAD: 03erikgreenwald * r36928 10/brlcad/trunk/src/libfb/if_X.c: add prototype for genmap
21:22.40 CIA-38 BRL-CAD: 03erikgreenwald * r36929 10/brlcad/trunk/src/librt/primitives/ (metaball/metaball.c table.c): fix metaball_adjust prototype
21:27.59 CIA-38 BRL-CAD: 03erikgreenwald * r36930 10/brlcad/trunk/src/libtclcad/tkImgFmtPIX.c: match type with fb.h
21:43.15 ``Erik hm, seems to be some libtool vs not libtool confusion in tkpng
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21:46.11 ``Erik http://paste.bzflag.bz/d49811205
21:56.59 ``Erik huh, xcb requires python? O.o
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22:10.33 CIA-38 BRL-CAD: 03starseeker * r36931 10/brlcad/trunk/src/other/Makefile.am: tkimg dir is no more.
22:12.49 talcite heh yay
22:12.51 tofu starseeker: per erik's paste, need to make the install rule manually run make all before make install, then install without libtool
22:14.10 starseeker er...
22:14.45 ``Erik this is pleasant, fbsd has a tkpng port
22:15.36 talcite tkpng is already packaged into fedora as well
22:15.54 tofu excellend
22:15.56 tofu t*
22:15.57 ``Erik so if the configure.ac is smart enough to use the system one, less in /usr/local/brlcad/ :)
22:16.12 starseeker don't y'all get too happy too fast, I haven't got it working right yet
22:16.20 starseeker <- autotools dummy :-(
22:16.31 talcite I'm sure brlcad can get things working for you
22:16.49 starseeker talcite: he'll let me flounder a while - good learning experience :-/
22:16.54 talcite there's also a channel here that helps with autotools... #toolchain or something?
22:16.57 talcite heh
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22:18.17 ``Erik learning experience, entertainment, something
22:18.42 talcite ##workingset That was it
22:18.49 talcite these guys are really good
22:19.44 starseeker talcite: part of the issue is we have a rather advanced autotools setup compared to what a lot of projects have, and are doing a lot of custom things (the db directory is a good example)
22:19.53 brlcad sees a couple bzflag devs in there
22:20.59 starseeker brlcad: do you mean doing something like tkpng-install: tkpng-all in src/other/Makefile.am?
22:21.29 brlcad no, i mean one line to run all
22:21.31 brlcad another to run install
22:21.34 brlcad for the install rule
22:21.37 starseeker oh
22:32.10 ``Erik wow, 33 megs in src/other/boost/ O.O
22:35.28 CIA-38 BRL-CAD: 03starseeker * r36932 10/brlcad/trunk/src/other/Makefile.am: If someone runs the install rule, make sure make all is run first.
22:35.29 starseeker takes a stab at it...
22:45.51 starseeker ``Erik: did that help any?
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23:48.50 yukonbob brlcad: what's the "kde/hyrdrogen/linux" .po discussion that's been going on about?

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