IRC log for #brlcad on 20111115

00:05.45 *** join/#brlcad jordisayol (~jordisayo@unaffiliated/jordisayol)
01:08.54 jarray52 louipc: What would be the primary limitations of using brl-cad for designing something like a car, motorcycle, diesel generator, or satellite?
01:10.56 jarray52 And the primary advantages over AutoCad or solidworks?
01:59.46 starseeker makes a note to read this in more detail: http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/3687
02:02.42 louipc jarray52: brl-cad has no dimensioning feature, or 2d drafting ability, no step export, and step import is still in development
02:05.41 louipc jarray52: one of brl-cad's main purposes was for ballistics analysis for the military, so it doesn't have the regular CAD stuff you usually expect
02:08.42 louipc jarray52: not even a shaded view for solids in editing.. you have to explicitly render the view
02:09.32 jarray52 What are its primary advantages?
02:10.34 louipc seems more geared for making 'true' solids
02:10.36 jarray52 over something like solidworks
02:10.40 jarray52 or autocad
02:10.43 jarray52 other than cost
02:11.04 louipc it's not really in the same realm at the moment
02:11.17 louipc or ever? dunno
02:12.29 louipc depends on what you want to do I guess
02:12.37 jarray52 in quality or purpose?
02:12.45 louipc purpose
02:13.01 jarray52 it can export .dxf
02:13.25 louipc think so
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03:38.20 brlcad jarray52: the primary limitation is usability -- like any cad system, there's a significant learning curve
03:38.30 brlcad and ours is particularly steep
03:40.39 brlcad jarray52: BRL-CAD's strength is for assisting with a variety of engineering analysis work, generally niche fields that have varied/unpredicatble requirements
03:42.41 jarray52 brlcad: After getting past the learning curve, is the system nicely useable?
03:42.53 brlcad for basic design/modeling, BRL-CAD is good once you get up the learning curve but it is a different command-line driven approach that usually favors people with scripting skills
03:43.21 brlcad it's usable, been used for production analysis work in the DoD for several decades
03:43.29 jarray52 I'm a python/c++ programmer with little CAD experience. So, I really like the idea of scripting oriented CAD.
03:43.54 brlcad but make no mistake, that learning curve is steep -- brl-cad is huge with lots of features and lots of ways to get tasks done ;)
03:44.02 jarray52 Is the engineering analysis work limited to ballistics/electromagnetics.
03:44.06 jarray52 ?
03:44.36 jarray52 brlcad: Is the learning curve steeper than learning a programming language like C++ for the first time?
03:44.45 brlcad not really, and we don't even include that analysis logic directly within BRL-CAD -- hooks are provided to the analysis codes
03:44.58 brlcad oh heavens no
03:45.15 jarray52 what about learning python for the first time?
03:46.03 brlcad the biggest issue is probably that it's not a discoverable system, you'll only learn by going through tutorials (for which there are EXTENSIVE tutorials across a range of topics), reading man pages, and modeling, modeling, modeling
03:46.41 brlcad I don't think so, but that's a bit of a skewed question to ask...
03:46.59 jarray52 Once mastered, does it have lots of features not found in programs like autocad, catia, and pro engineer?
03:47.11 brlcad is it harder to learn being a professional woodworker or a professional mechanic?
03:47.24 jarray52 sorry...
03:47.27 brlcad they both can take decades to master ;)
03:47.40 jarray52 the questions were misguided...
03:47.57 brlcad it's fine, just don't want you to have unrealistic expectations
03:48.27 brlcad there are some features BRL-CAD provides that are arguably better or more powerful than features in commercial CAD systems
03:48.38 jarray52 such as?
03:49.15 brlcad we are one of the very best at loading superbly complex models with minimal memory and processing, and still being able to render/analyse those models more quickly than anyone else
03:49.51 brlcad notorious for being able to open models that bring Pro/E, NX, and others to their knees on a powerful workstation
03:50.24 brlcad our other flexibility is in the breadth of flexibility, lots and lots of tools that you can chain together to get a job done
03:51.47 jarray52 Just so I understand... this type of thing could for example be used to model an aircraft carrier with planes taking off and landing or a space station with multiple space vehicles docking, leaving, and so on.
03:52.27 jarray52 Is that the type of specialized thing that brlcad would do well?
03:52.28 brlcad if we were an operating system code, we'd be more like bsd userland tools and a bsd microkernel -- not the pretty shiny layer on top ala osx or the facades of gnome/gtk, windows, etc
03:52.53 starseeker Our graphical interactions are very primitive by modern standards
03:52.54 jarray52 microkernel?
03:53.47 starseeker jarray52: more like using a (relatively) small amount of information to represent complex geometry - that's a specialty
03:53.48 jarray52 Would this be a good tool to design and model a diesel or car engine?
03:54.12 jarray52 with internal moving parts and all...
03:54.22 brlcad jarray52: nevermind the microkernel analogy if it's unfamiliar, the linux kernel works as an analogy too -- we're (presently) more of a kernel, not an easy-to-use distribution like ubuntu or fedora
03:54.22 starseeker we don't currently simlulate part interactions
03:54.43 brlcad jarray52: you can model just about anything -- it's what you do with the model once you're done
03:54.45 starseeker (some nifty work going on to integrate bullet, but that's in the experimental stages)
03:55.12 brlcad so yeah, you could model up an entire aircraft carrier down to every nut bolt and wire, no problem
03:55.15 starseeker jarray52: if you're going to create a model in BRL-CAD, you'll need to use constructive solid geometry
03:55.20 brlcad generate renderings and visualizations, no problem
03:56.02 brlcad but then if you want blueprints -- we can provide the hidden line blueprint-style image, but not with dimensions or labels annotated
03:56.33 brlcad or if you want an animation, no problem .. but we don't (yet) provide physics simulations with contact constraints
03:57.16 jarray52 starseeker: I don't understand what you mean by "we don't currently simulate part interactions".
03:57.25 brlcad jarray52: take a look at the introduction to mged tutorial and scripting tutorial on the website, they'll give you a good idea of some things possible (along with the image gallery)
03:57.29 jarray52 in light of the other comments made by yourself and brlcad.
03:57.46 starseeker jarray52: if you model two gears and try to have one turn the other, for example
03:58.00 starseeker we don't do that right now
03:58.18 brlcad jarray52: http://brlcad.org/wiki/Documentation <-- #2
03:58.34 brlcad and http://brlcad.org/wiki/SGI_Cube for a very brief scripting example
03:59.12 jarray52 starseeker: Does any cad program allow one gear to turn another?
03:59.30 brlcad yeah, the big five all have that ability
04:00.02 jarray52 brlcad: big five=CATIA, Pro/Engineer, NX, AutoCAD, xxx?
04:00.09 brlcad you have to specify a lot of crap to make it happen automagically, but it's "possible"
04:00.13 brlcad solidworks
04:00.18 jarray52 right
04:00.56 brlcad technically, it's sorta possible in brl-cad, but that's functionality that was last used more than 10 years ago
04:01.17 brlcad we have someone working on a new system now, way way cooler and easier to use .. but just getting started :)
04:01.53 jarray52 brlcad: So, the user has to specify the motion for animations along with contact constraints, but it is possible, right?
04:03.06 brlcad jarray52: this may be more familiar with your python background .. it's a perl modeling example, but could do almost exactly the same with python: http://brlcad.org/wiki/Spiral
04:03.49 brlcad jarray52: well like I said -- it's a new system and I wouldn't recommend trying to use the old system unless you're willing to help debug
04:04.31 brlcad until then, you basically have to manually put geometry where you want it, motion is just basic model transformations
04:05.06 brlcad ala claymation, just not quite as tedious
04:05.21 brlcad (because you can script it all)
04:05.58 jarray52 brlcad: That's actually very cool because an external program could be doing calculations and transformations and moving the parts.
04:06.05 brlcad louipc: ah, interesting, I'd tried .1 and it found some new issues .. .2 finds more .. someone must be actively boosting up those detection abilities
04:06.41 brlcad jarray52: that's actually the intent (and you can see how we start to "fit in" with external analysis codes)
04:07.59 jarray52 brlcad: And, once the model and external analysis code work the way they are intended to work(in theory at least), the parts can be exported to .dxf and manufactured.
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04:09.28 jarray52 brlcad: I think you have me sold on BRL-CAD now.
04:10.09 starseeker jarray52: the thing that will probably feel strangest about BRL-CAD in its current form is the lack of 3D shaded displays - we visualize only with wireframes or raytracing now, unless you happen to have a triangle based model
04:10.53 jarray52 Raytracing with wireframes only?
04:11.05 starseeker no, interactive display with wireframe only
04:11.13 starseeker raytrace is when it gets pretty :-)
04:11.23 brlcad interactive as in grab the mouse and spin the model around -- wireframe only
04:11.34 brlcad hit the render button, though, and you get your pretty shaded picture
04:12.04 jarray52 brlcad: That's acceptable.
04:12.33 jarray52 brlcad: At the end of the day, one can sell the pretty picture to a boss or investors.
04:12.39 jarray52 :)
04:12.41 brlcad nods :)
04:12.52 brlcad you've seen the gallery yes?
04:12.58 jarray52 brlcad: Yes.
04:13.06 jarray52 brlcad: And read through some of the manuals.
04:13.19 brlcad so that's a pretty wide range of different types of projects and different ability levels
04:13.21 jarray52 brlcad: I'm a CAD/CAE/CAM newbie.
04:13.27 jarray52 brlcad: Yes.
04:13.33 brlcad all the better, less to unlearn :)
04:14.20 starseeker folks expecting a Blender-like GUI are in for a shock, but there's a lot of power under the hood
04:14.56 jarray52 starseeker: I prefer scripted model development.
04:15.07 starseeker longer term we're planning to get there, but there's a *lot* of foundational work that has to come before the pretty interactive 3d
04:15.10 starseeker :-)
04:15.18 starseeker jarray52: then you're in the right place :-)
04:15.38 jarray52 In theory, scripted development should be faster, right?
04:15.55 starseeker for some classes of problems, absolutely
04:15.59 jarray52 probably depends on the designer.
04:16.10 jarray52 starseeker: Yes. Most definitely.
04:16.13 brlcad very much so
04:16.18 starseeker if you have data you can feed the script, that's where scripting shines
04:16.31 brlcad if the designer doesn't know how to write a script, that's a pretty huge hurdle ;)
04:16.37 starseeker jarray52: if you really want to go to town, there are C apis for model generation
04:17.05 brlcad jarray52: a case study example that may be of interest: http://brlcad.org/wiki/Ronja
04:17.06 starseeker that's what the tire tools does, for example - tire dimensions in, tire geometry out.
04:17.10 starseeker procedural modeling
04:18.04 brlcad jarray52: that's an individual that learned to model in less than a day, spent maybe a week modeling his design, then another week writing scripts to generate various images and animations: http://ronja.twibright.com/3d/
04:19.15 brlcad not the best example of good modeling practices in his models, but a decent showcase of what is possible within just a few days time
04:19.40 starseeker oh, this one is kinda fun for "what's possible" http://more.brlcad.org/model/basic-impeller
04:20.13 brlcad that'd be a fun one to feed to an arylic printer
04:20.27 starseeker reflects we really should get that default GPL license label off the more.brlcad.org listings...
04:21.45 jarray52 brlcad: BRL-CAD would probably be a good tool for modelling a network of telephone or power transmission lines including the powerplant, right?
04:21.59 brlcad sure
04:22.17 brlcad starseeker: you going to close out and document sf bug #3435642 ?
04:22.22 brlcad the obj export bug
04:22.23 starseeker fun with the pipe primitive :-)
04:22.33 starseeker brlcad: oh, right - he confirmed the fix, didn't he
04:22.36 jarray52 brlcad: This would be the type of design for which BRL-CAD shines, right?
04:23.50 brlcad yeah, there are only a few types of models that BRL-CAD is ill-suited for direct modeling (import is fine though)
04:25.28 brlcad namely: soft bodies (e.g., human skin) and highly curved surfaces (e.g., some modern car bodies)
04:26.47 brlcad objects that can be broken down into constituent primitives shapes can be directly modeled much easier
04:27.17 louipc brlcad: http://louipc.mine.nu/brlcad/brlcad-7.20.4-1-x86_64-build.log
04:27.39 louipc that's a full build log with my version of gcc if that interests you
04:27.52 louipc strict=off
04:31.45 CIA-109 BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r47479 10/brlcad/trunk/src/librt/primitives/extrude/extrude.c:
04:31.46 CIA-109 BRL-CAD: attempt a fix for a variety of gcc 4.6.2 strict compilation failures reported by
04:31.46 CIA-109 BRL-CAD: louipc (irc). compiler was clever enough to figure out that 2d-arrays were
04:31.46 CIA-109 BRL-CAD: getting passed around as pointers and getting later treated as 3d-arrays.
04:32.03 brlcad louipc: thanks... but do you have an svn checkout? :)
04:32.09 louipc yeah
04:32.10 CIA-109 BRL-CAD: 03starseeker * r47480 10/brlcad/trunk/NEWS:
04:32.10 CIA-109 BRL-CAD: obj export was producing facets that all shared the same number instead of
04:32.10 CIA-109 BRL-CAD: pointing to the correct points - problem was very precisely identified by
04:32.10 CIA-109 BRL-CAD: Christopher Pitts (down to the incorrect variable in the source file), so he
04:32.10 CIA-109 BRL-CAD: gets credit for the fix - thanks\!
04:32.26 brlcad line numbers will be askew and easier to verify if you can svn up while I fix
04:32.40 louipc ok
04:34.11 brlcad starseeker: cool, thx
04:35.02 brlcad unrelared, r47471 seems wrong .. removed bu.h and pulled in a bunch of header foo it was using in the test client?
04:35.19 brlcad presume you encountered some problem?
04:35.44 starseeker the point of that client was to be totally self contained
04:36.29 brlcad is ntohll required for something in the test client??
04:36.35 brlcad that seems .. wrong :)
04:36.50 starseeker IIRC, Eric was using it to ensure network order when packing some stuff
04:37.35 starseeker shrugs - I'm still doing remedial education at this point, I did that to ensure the build worked
04:37.40 brlcad no problem
04:37.45 brlcad it was more a curiosity
04:37.55 brlcad it could frankly be a shell script making telnet calls
04:38.33 starseeker in principle, sure - in practice I'm trying to at least *pretend* the goal is to be portable to Windows :-P
04:38.42 brlcad but by "self contained" the main requirement is actually just not calling any gs/ge code
04:38.47 starseeker right
04:39.01 brlcad bu.h isn't in that category, so it's an impl detail
04:39.31 brlcad it's the stuff in the geomcore checkout that should be avoided (for the indep test only of course)
04:39.54 starseeker nods - I could have fixed the build logic too, but the logic ran "why's this failing - oh, that's supposed to be self-contained - huh it's just using that one feature - commit"
04:39.54 brlcad either way, like I said -- more just a curiosity, carry on ;)
04:40.18 starseeker resumes wallowing in ignorance :-P
04:40.30 starseeker btw, welcome back
04:41.25 brlcad it raised my "what?" radar simply because it fails DRY and that usually trumps
04:41.39 starseeker ponders whether SCL should do as BRL-CAD does with version numbers...
04:42.36 brlcad for a project that small, the version number could live in the top-level CMakeLists.txt file, maybe wrap in a macro if it's needed in multiple places but the built-in versioning hooks are probably sufficient
04:43.08 brlcad we're more of a platform where that number is used all over the place in various ways
04:43.11 brlcad scl not so much
04:43.38 starseeker nods - that was my thought
04:43.56 starseeker just do some .in files if they want it in headers
04:44.51 starseeker s/Eric/Erik
04:44.57 starseeker alright, bedtime
04:47.09 brlcad hasta la pasta
04:48.42 louipc oops? http://louipc.mine.nu/brlcad/brlcad-svn47480-build.log
04:48.48 jarray52 brlcad: Thanks for answering my questions.
04:49.11 jarray52 I want to thank starseeker and others as well.
04:50.23 louipc thanks for being patient and sticking around ;)
05:39.25 jordisayol brlcad: hasta la pasta!?
05:41.11 jarray52 8-)
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15:03.38 CIA-109 BRL-CAD: 03d_rossberg * r47481 10/rt^3/trunk/ (2 files in 2 dirs):
15:03.39 CIA-109 BRL-CAD: method to get a simple facetized boundary-representation of a subtree
15:03.39 CIA-109 BRL-CAD: it's a method of the database because not only one element is involved but the tree below the requested element
15:09.48 ``Erik the GS "ping/pong" uses a network order uint64, so ntohll() was needed... personally, I think the protocol should evolve as a human readable ascii thing over the line (yes, so telnet can be used, and it can be easily debugged), then add a 'binary' command and mode down the road
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15:41.40 brlcad d_rossberg: not that it matters much, but "nmg" stands for n-manifold geometry
15:42.07 brlcad the original paper was entitled non-manifold, but by the time it was implemented and announced, it became n-manifold
15:48.35 brlcad of course, the generalized structure happens to support n-manifold surfaces as well as non-manifold vertices and edges (not sure about non-manifold faces)
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16:02.07 d_rossberg these n-manifold vs. non-manifold sounds unfortunate, espaecially because it is still the original Weiler non-manifild
16:02.51 d_rossberg including all its ballast
16:03.23 brlcad it's mainly due to the audience perspective, though
16:03.46 brlcad weiler was trying to solve the academic problem of how to model non-manifold entities
16:04.17 brlcad the structure does that, even if the dominant use is for n-manifold surface boundaries
16:05.18 d_rossberg i wouldn't mind to get rid of the burden
16:05.23 brlcad from our users perspective, it should really just be called a "mesh" or "solid polygonal mesh" or similar :)
16:05.50 brlcad burden?
16:06.14 d_rossberg the model, region and lower dimensional things
16:07.02 brlcad you mean implement a non-weiler polygonal mesh api or something else? :)
16:07.17 d_rossberg all we really need is a single shell
16:08.36 d_rossberg it looks like most of the algorothms using nmg can't handle models with multiple regions
16:09.30 brlcad that's because they're all just copies of each other and the first guy was lazy
16:09.34 d_rossberg these are relics of the original nmg CAD project
16:09.48 ``Erik most assume an NMG is a single NMG region with a single NMG shell, iirc
16:11.21 brlcad I don't believe the boolean evaluator used for E/ev is that limited
16:11.58 d_rossberg and support of Euler operations would be nice
16:13.27 brlcad if I have an rcc and subtract an arb8 from the middle, makes two shells -- you really don't want to create two single-shell nmg objects, you want just one named object with the two shells in it
16:15.25 d_rossberg nmg_booltree_leaf_tess creates a new model for every primitive
16:16.13 brlcad nmg supports most euler operations iirc
16:16.37 brlcad perhaps not all
16:22.28 brlcad creates a new model for each prim, but then pairwise extracts their (single) shell and performs the boolean
16:22.53 brlcad the limitation is only on a single primitive that might have multiple shells (BoT, pnts, dsp, ..)
16:24.14 brlcad otherwise, the boolean of two shells will result in n-shells
16:28.14 d_rossberg a shell is a simple collection of faces, loops, edges and a vertex, there is no real restriction to a single connected volume
16:28.24 d_rossberg however, i plan to write down my impress
16:28.44 d_rossberg -ions and send them to the devel-list
16:28.55 d_rossberg ... later
16:29.54 brlcad well, no restriction other than that is the (current) definition of a shell :)
16:32.31 brlcad that said, I do agree that there's no practical benefit that comes to mind for having models and regions (to a slightly lesser degree)
16:33.49 brlcad there would be a purpose for regions and models if you could associate user-data (void*) to caller API
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18:22.46 starseeker hah, cool: http://code.google.com/p/libmv/
18:51.57 ``Erik was looking at that a while ago, have they actually been working on it? O.o seemed like a dead end at the time
18:52.48 CIA-109 BRL-CAD: 03erikgreenwald * r47482 10/geomcore/trunk/tests/func/GE/GeometryEngineTest.cxx: fix usage typo
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19:06.11 brlcad "BRLCAD" is a typo too
19:06.32 brlcad dash merely in the wrong place
19:59.25 CIA-109 BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r47483 10/brlcad/trunk/ (5 files in 5 dirs):
19:59.25 CIA-109 BRL-CAD: make the invoking wrapper batch scripts all set the PATH before running
19:59.25 CIA-109 BRL-CAD: mged/archer/bwish/rtwizard so that tools invoked by commands can be found.
19:59.25 CIA-109 BRL-CAD: untested, but should do the trick without requiring the user to have
19:59.25 CIA-109 BRL-CAD: admin/profile rights to modify the PATH permanently. this is in response to a
19:59.25 CIA-109 BRL-CAD: feature request from the dwayne kregel.
20:13.25 CIA-109 BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r47484 10/brlcad/trunk/ (4 files in 2 dirs): apply another tclscript update from carl g moore jr that reports what the input object names are that weren't combs and makes reid report the highest value set.
20:20.56 CIA-109 BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r47485 10/brlcad/trunk/TODO: document dwayne's detailed feature request for a geometry prep lintian command
20:55.02 CIA-109 BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r47486 10/brlcad/trunk/NEWS:
20:55.02 CIA-109 BRL-CAD: daniel applied a fix in r47473 for a bug that was preventing the detection of V4
20:55.02 CIA-109 BRL-CAD: regions during raytrace. it looks like this is the same bug reported by chris
20:55.02 CIA-109 BRL-CAD: pitts a couple weeks ago, which he'd traced down to db5_sync_attr_to_comb()
20:55.02 CIA-109 BRL-CAD: wiping out the comb structure.
21:02.47 CIA-109 BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r47487 10/brlcad/trunk/NEWS: bob added the 'l'ist command to archer, which improves/fixes the 'g' grouping command
21:08.45 CIA-109 BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r47488 10/brlcad/trunk/AUTHORS: special thanks to chris pitts for his efforts to report, diagnose, and even help pinpoint where in the source code a problem was occurring. helped with v4 raytracing and obj export issue.
21:11.02 CIA-109 BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r47489 10/brlcad/trunk/AUTHORS: browder now belongs up in the code contributions section given all of the recent documentation efforts.
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23:10.59 CIA-109 BRL-CAD: 03n_reed * r47490 10/brlcad/trunk/src/other/ (9 files in 2 dirs): adding sources for an experimental scanner-generator
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