IRC log for #brlcad on 20150528

18:52.14 *** join/#brlcad infobot (ibot@rikers.org)
18:52.14 *** topic/#brlcad is BRL-CAD || http://brlcad.org || logs: http://ibot.rikers.org/%23brlcad/ || Congrats to all GCI 2014 winners Peter & Marc! || Congratulations to our 12 GSoC students! || Don't ask if someone is here, just ask your questions and wait for a response. ;-)
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19:17.03 Notify 03BRL-CAD:ejno * 65077 brlcad/trunk/src/libgcv/conv/fastgen4/fastgen4_write.cpp: work on supporting boolean operations (in progress)
19:21.52 Notify 03BRL-CAD:brlcad * 65078 brlcad/trunk/src/librt/primitives/sketch/sketch.c: add missing semicolon
19:24.01 *** join/#brlcad ih8sum3r (~chatzilla@122.173.183.95)
19:26.53 ih8sum3r brlcad: Hello
19:42.53 ``Erik heh, he's using his alt alt nick, I doubt he's looking right now :) if you need help, ask your ask
19:51.40 ih8sum3r I just want to ask, I'm planning to use http://codepen.io/zessx/pen/ZGBMXZ such kind of background in OGV landing page. Will it (kind of geometry) match BRL-CAD theme or not.
19:52.47 Notify 03BRL-CAD Wiki:Deekaysharma * 8434 /wiki/User:Deekaysharma/logs:
20:01.42 Notify 03BRL-CAD:carlmoore * 65079 brlcad/trunk/src/util/pix-bw.c: I have switched int to size_t because that's the type I see in a routine called by this program.
20:01.47 tofu_ ih8sum3r: it's fine for now, but it definitely doesn't match our theme or preferred geometry representation type
20:03.14 ih8sum3r tofu_: Can you please tell which geometry will match our theme?
20:05.13 brlcad ih8sum3r: "not triangles"
20:06.39 brlcad triangle geometry is pervasive with content modelers, not CAD
20:07.47 brlcad ih8sum3r: there was a great discussion during GCI about using that same framework to display boolean operations interactively
20:08.33 brlcad if you search the GCI tasks for the "splash screen" tasks, you should find some of that discussion and a few examples that are closer to fitting our theme
20:09.00 ih8sum3r AFAIK was it done by Marc!
20:09.05 brlcad yes
20:09.27 brlcad had the same talk with him about polygons being inappropriate
20:09.40 brlcad but fine for a starting point
20:09.58 brlcad he used a style-agnostic gray theme, less movement, more subtle
20:10.20 ih8sum3r I remember he made some page whose background was similar to this one http://codepen.io/VincentGarreau/pen/pnlso
20:10.25 brlcad didn't get booleans working, but I think that was more a coding experience limitation that you might be able to manage quickly
20:10.58 brlcad yes
20:12.55 brlcad my suggestion was something along the lines of having it randomly generate ellipses and rectangles, performing union/subtract/unions as they move around
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20:14.12 ih8sum3r If I use similar thing which I send you will it be Okay? My plan is to use such background with the black tint above it on which BRL-CAD logo is there with written text OGV. Along with it there will be a login button.
20:14.24 ``Erik why have a moving background for a landing page? O.o
20:14.49 ih8sum3r Oh! okay i'll find something similar to ellipse or rectangles.
20:16.00 ih8sum3r I thought to use it so that a leaves an impression of something like CAD or 3D to the user in the first look only.
20:18.08 brlcad ih8sum3r: whatever you do, it should be very subtle .. the center of attention should be on login or docs or info or something else
20:19.27 Notify 03BRL-CAD:carlmoore * 65080 brlcad/trunk/src/util/pix-bw.c: remove the variable named 'multiplier'; it was not being used
20:20.25 dracarys983 brlcad: Take a look at the ERROR 1 here. It needs a change in CMakeLists.txt of include/rt.
20:20.27 dracarys983 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SvdoZ6VK1iRiCLrdmNrHDnJePjy5wCpD2s0iMkIOMDo/edit?usp=sharing
20:20.48 ih8sum3r Okay i'll try to find out something good and new :).
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20:21.02 *** mode/#brlcad [-q *!*@212.203.58.127] by brlcad
20:21.42 brlcad dracarys983: I can't get to gdocs from my current location -- can you summarize or repost to pastebin.ca
20:23.03 dracarys983 brlcad: Present CMakeLists.txt of include/rt installs all headers (including it's subdirectory primitive's) in ${CMAKE_INSTALL_PREFIX}/include/brlcad/rt
20:23.21 dracarys983 Hence there is no subdirectory primitives there
20:23.37 dracarys983 Outcome are those errors
20:23.48 dracarys983 s/are/is
20:25.02 ``Erik hm, 'file -> email as attachment', or "file -> download as" and dcc could work
20:25.16 ``Erik heh, dcc, there's a blast from the past :D
20:25.38 brlcad dracarys983: ah, got it
20:25.46 brlcad starseeker: easy fix?
20:26.00 brlcad besides creating a subdir CMakeLists.txt file
20:26.33 dracarys983 http://pastebin.ca/3012394 <-- rt's CMakeLists.txt changes
20:27.22 dracarys983 http://pastebin.ca/3012397 <-- rt/primitive's CMakeLists.txt
20:28.12 brlcad ah, so you added a subdir
20:28.14 brlcad okay
20:28.28 brlcad there's almost certainly a way to avoid that
20:29.00 brlcad can you make that into a quick patch?
20:29.01 dracarys983 brlcad: I'm all up to do it in a better way if there's one :D
20:29.24 dracarys983 With subdir?
20:29.35 brlcad that's why I asked starseeker .. he brok^wwrote it that way ;)
20:31.00 dracarys983 Should I submit these changes as a patch or leave it to starseeker?
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20:33.06 brlcad if you make a patchfile, I'll apply it now
20:33.14 ``Erik brlcad: did you get my email about dns?
20:33.22 brlcad ``Erik: maybe
20:33.40 brlcad I've not seen half my mail today
20:33.42 brlcad (yet)
20:34.00 ``Erik ah, I dropped isc on the server, I think it's working but a double check wouldn't hurt
20:34.08 brlcad ah, cool
20:35.07 brlcad that reminds me.. I got a slew (dozen or so) of rejection e-mails that were obviously either spoofing a brlcad.org address, or the smtp server somehow sent out a bunch of spam and I got the responses
20:36.36 ``Erik spoofing an address? I see plenty of spams with malformed 'from' addresses that the server appends .brlcad.org to, is that what you're seeing?
20:36.52 ``Erik "From blah@some.bad.host.brlcad.org"
20:36.53 brlcad yeah, that's it
20:36.56 vasc brlcad, did you get the chance to look at the OpenCL patches?
20:37.26 brlcad vasc: I was working on one last night, looking good
20:37.40 brlcad should finish it up tonight and can give some feedback/apply
20:38.27 vasc cool. i'm looking at the rendering loop to see how i can parallelize it for opencl but its a bit convoluted and recursive
20:38.40 vasc as expected
20:38.43 brlcad yep :)
20:38.52 brlcad I suggest batching first
20:39.03 brlcad get all rays dispatching (which can then be parallelized)
20:40.07 brlcad aggregate all hits (instead of immediately calling librt to weave them and liboptical to colorize them)
20:40.34 vasc the problem is with the secondary rays
20:41.13 brlcad could ignore secondary for first steps, or go with a streaming main loop (consumer/producer)
20:41.24 brlcad good paper on that method from a couple years ago
20:41.41 vasc the traditional ray tracing rendering loops do ray tracing in a depth first manner across the ray tree. but we need to do breadth first on the gpgpu
20:41.50 brlcad nods
20:41.58 brlcad that's basically what I mean by batching
20:42.03 vasc yes
20:43.11 brlcad here we go
20:43.18 vasc i think i'll ignore secondaries as a first approach, but we'll want them back later on. this should be a rendering pipeline option aka quick path or whatever
20:43.37 brlcad don't know if it's online, but from HPG09: "Faster Incoherent Rays: Multi-BVH Ray Stream Tracing"
20:43.41 vasc there was an interesting paper a couple of years back
20:44.20 vasc that one's too intel specific i think
20:45.14 brlcad the optimizations are too intel/simd-specific, but the overall algorithm is pretty sound
20:45.21 brlcad and generalizable
20:45.58 brlcad anyways, just a thought .. how that applies to our code is still the bigger piece of the pie
20:46.04 vasc i think its a single-ray many object intersection routine
20:46.11 vasc its good for secondaries but
20:48.52 Notify 03BRL-CAD:brlcad * 65081 brlcad/trunk/src/librt/primitives/xxx/xxx.c: actually demonstrate specific allocation and deallocation since calling bu_free() can be wrong if that's not how it was allocated.
20:49.32 dracarys983 brlcad: Done. :)
20:50.59 Notify 03BRL-CAD:brlcad * 65082 brlcad/trunk/src/librt/primitives/xxx/xxx.c: this is why xxx needs to be enabled for compilation. gets out of sync too easily. add missing cv.h header for SIZEOF
20:51.51 vasc the thing is you can increase the branching factor of a bvh to do parallel testing. to a point
20:52.13 Notify 03BRL-CAD:brlcad * 65083 brlcad/trunk/src/librt/CMakeLists.txt: enable xxx for continuous compilation. might want to put this into its own noinst lib, but this is a reasonable way to ensure the exact same compilation settings are being used.
20:52.25 vasc but its one thing to have a bvh with 4-arity for intel simd and another to make like hundreds of threads arity
20:52.37 vasc like for a gpu
20:53.13 vasc it can work for a complex scene with thousands of primitives or more but will give no speedup in simpler scenes
20:53.21 Notify 03BRL-CAD:brlcad * 65084 brlcad/trunk/src/librt/CMakeLists.txt: too soon
20:53.51 dracarys983 vasc: Congratulations for the CGI paper man. Didn't get a chance before :)
20:54.09 brlcad dracarys983: link?
20:54.12 vasc thx
20:54.35 dracarys983 brlcad: https://sourceforge.net/p/brlcad/patches/371/
20:54.48 vasc its just a short paper though. i had too much work back when it was the time window to submit the long papers
20:54.49 brlcad vasc: yeah, aren't you supposed to be at a conference this week? :)
20:54.58 vasc its next month
20:55.14 brlcad ah, got the date wrong on my calendar then
20:55.33 dracarys983 vasc: Like a technical brief?
20:55.37 vasc http://cgi2015.unistra.fr/
20:55.55 vasc its a short paper. 4 pages. i'll then get a change to submit an extended version though
20:56.10 vasc to the visual computer journal
20:56.33 dracarys983 Nice. :)
20:56.42 dracarys983 All the Best for that!
20:56.59 vasc thx. it might be accepted or not. i hope it will.
20:58.14 Notify 03BRL-CAD:brlcad * 65085 brlcad/trunk/src/librt/CMakeLists.txt: still ignore headers
20:58.27 dracarys983 vasc: We ride on hope most of the time. I believe it will get accepted, though. :)
21:01.29 vasc i think the Fast Ray Sorting and Breadth‐First Packet Traversal for GPU Ray Tracing paper by Garanzha and Loop might be more appropriate
21:02.29 vasc than the intel one
21:02.41 vasc i think garanzha is at nvidia now
21:03.54 Notify 03BRL-CAD:brlcad * 65086 brlcad/trunk/include/rt/CMakeLists.txt: apply sf patch #371 (Changes in CMakeLists.txt for include/rt and include/rt/primitives) from Kalpit Thakkar that fixes header installation
21:05.01 vasc man my english keeps getting worse and worse ever since i started reading scanlated japanese and korean manga
21:06.53 Notify 03BRL-CAD:brlcad * 65087 brlcad/trunk/AUTHORS: credit kalpit with his code contribution that fixed header installation (sf patch 371), first from gsoc 2015 activity
21:08.02 vasc about the sampling technique for the estimation of area or whatever its like brlcad said. you can always use the same RNG seed to make it predictable.
21:08.51 vasc or cast the exact same rays of whatever
21:09.12 vasc i think for the volume estimation there's another possibility though.
21:09.36 vasc depending on how innacurate you accept the results to be
21:10.01 vasc i think there's already a bounding box operator for all the primitives so you could just use that
21:11.24 vasc you could even use it for area estimation as well
21:11.36 vasc its probably really inaccurate but at least its fast
21:14.35 vasc you would just computer the surface area of the bounding box and the volume of the bounding box as the estimate of the real thing
21:14.39 vasc compute
21:14.57 Notify 03BRL-CAD:brlcad * 65088 (brlcad/trunk/src/libsysv/memset.c brlcad/trunk/src/libsysv/strchr.c and 3 others): yo dawg, I heard you like to quell warnings on your warning quellage. compilers be gotten smart.
21:15.20 brlcad example of a bad commit message ;)
21:15.45 dracarys983 brlcad: Haha okay :P
21:16.24 dracarys983 vasc: So we find the best bounding box and use it's estimate for volume and surface area. That's what you're saying?
21:16.46 brlcad vasc: for that particular analysis (volume) I don't even think you'd need to match seed since it should be possible to track the convergence
21:17.07 brlcad once we get N+M digits of confidence, we print the N digits back to the user
21:17.59 brlcad but doesn't matter, daniel wants to go with the refactoring route, and that is definitely the lower-risk avenue from where we're at 9there's a LOT of validation in most of our analysis code)
21:18.10 vasc its going to be a gross estimate. but at least it will be quick to compute. if you only use the area and volume operators for computing heuristics its probably good enough
21:19.06 vasc the you know the volume of the bounding box is always larger or the same as the volume of the real thing
21:19.12 vasc s/the/and
21:19.21 vasc as for the area i dunno
21:19.37 brlcad I believe someone actulaly implemented the BB estimate method you mention
21:19.41 brlcad like 20 years ago :)
21:19.46 vasc yes
21:19.54 vasc so its like i said you can just use that
21:20.01 brlcad it's not useful
21:20.13 vasc what's the intended application scenario?
21:20.30 brlcad a user wants to know what the volume of object X is for a report
21:20.57 vasc oh i see. you could use it to know how much material you need to manufacture the thing or whatever
21:21.15 brlcad how much mass it has for some simulation
21:21.23 vasc and if its equal density you could compute mass yes
21:21.43 brlcad this is a very common use case (why gqa and rtweight exist)
21:22.23 brlcad hooking them into the analyze command is more of a convenience / usability objective
21:22.57 brlcad instead of having to fire up this other command-line tool, specify view(s) and object(s) and fiddle with option knobs .. have it all happen automatically
21:23.14 vasc so you basically want rtweight to be available on the fly and automatically. i see.
21:23.34 brlcad actually view-independent gqa, but yes
21:24.08 brlcad rtweight is a single view sample so it has really bad convergence properties if the model happens to align with the view being shot
21:24.31 vasc you need at least to compute one for each major plane
21:24.37 brlcad think shooting through a screen door .. goes from solid mass to complete miss depending on the grid alignment
21:24.49 brlcad which is exactly what gqa does
21:24.57 vasc yeah, which i why i said you need one for each major plane
21:25.01 brlcad so users have almost abandonded rtweight in favor
21:25.21 vasc oh
21:25.26 dracarys983 brlcad: Yeah, even I like gqa
21:25.39 brlcad users then said they want more than just the major planes since you can still end up with perfect alignment issues (along diagonals and grazing rays)
21:25.56 brlcad they want 32 views
21:26.05 brlcad (which is a standard analysis thing)
21:27.04 vasc so gqa basically voxelizes the model and computes the volume that way?
21:27.08 brlcad I look at that and know that really they want it view independent .. just give me the volume with some known error bars
21:27.30 brlcad sort of -- it uses the actual hit depths but basically yes
21:27.51 brlcad or maybe we just talked about it doing that in which case the answer is just yes ;)
21:28.12 brlcad been a while since I worked on that code
21:28.31 brlcad both commands have been rewritten a couple times because they're so frequently called
21:29.13 brlcad gqa's main limitation is that you can't specify views and it's convergence is REALLY slow
21:29.28 brlcad it globally increases density by doubling factors per view
21:29.51 vasc i see
21:30.17 brlcad by that, I mean a few minutes on big models
21:30.29 vasc you could probably use something like adaptive supersampling in that case
21:31.01 brlcad maybe, it's tricky since it doesn't actually know if there's some pattern being overlooked without increasing the global density
21:31.03 vasc i.e. only if the adjacent values are different do you refine further
21:31.18 vasc yeah adaptive supersampling sometimes doesn't catch fine details
21:31.21 brlcad if you only sample "edge cases" you miss pathological geometry cases and have massive error
21:31.38 brlcad which wouldn't be acceptable for this usage
21:31.47 vasc but in this case you're mostly doing contours right?
21:32.20 vasc i could see it being a problem in something with holes though
21:32.40 vasc like a torus
21:32.47 brlcad right, that's basically the problem we even see shooting the three primary axes
21:33.38 brlcad that's why I really like the quasirandom spherical sampling approach
21:34.08 brlcad it has convergence properties that are intrinsically view agnostic and error can be characterized as a function of increasing sampling density
21:34.12 vasc even that will have problems if the surface isn't a manifold
21:34.59 brlcad we're a solid modeling system, if it's not manifold it's invalid geometry (or at least meaningless to talk about volume)
21:35.05 vasc ok
21:35.41 Notify 03BRL-CAD:ejno * 65089 brlcad/trunk/src/libgcv/conv/fastgen4/fastgen4_write.cpp: refactoring Section code (in progress); better management of grid IDs
21:35.46 vasc even then something with holes will have issues
21:35.54 vasc its just that its less dependent on positioning
21:36.24 brlcad how are holes an issue?
21:36.47 vasc like the torus
21:37.08 brlcad not following
21:37.11 vasc if i only look from the outside in a spherical projection i lose some data when looking that way
21:37.38 vasc hm actually it should work pretty nice now that i think about it
21:37.49 brlcad er, still not following :)
21:37.57 vasc well
21:38.04 brlcad we do full shotline samling, so I have ray segments through and through
21:38.11 brlcad the hole will be a gap between segments
21:38.31 brlcad sampled in any pattern, a torus will converge very quickly
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21:39.31 brlcad pathological cases are repetititve like blinds in a window, cheese graters, thin air intake slats on an engine block, etc
21:39.40 vasc ok. i thought you only used the closest intersection value
21:39.49 brlcad never!
21:39.52 brlcad that's our specialty
21:40.17 brlcad well not never .. we do only use first hit when making pretty pictures for performance
21:40.31 brlcad but it's not our primary purpose
21:41.10 vasc so basically your problem is getting the details because you're ray sampling and might miss something
21:41.12 brlcad primary purpose is full shotline / multihit ray tracing for analytic (scientific) purposes
21:41.17 vasc i guess you could use beam sampling :-)
21:41.21 vasc j/k
21:41.26 brlcad considered that
21:41.30 brlcad beams, cones
21:41.49 brlcad but reimplementing so many shot routines is probably highly impractical
21:41.53 vasc exactly
21:42.03 brlcad especially nurbs...
21:42.17 brlcad and some higher-order surfaces
21:42.20 vasc its basically the same issue you have with the volumes and area routines implementation except its much harder to compute beam intersections
21:42.27 brlcad elliptical torus would actually be pretty hard I bet
21:44.28 vasc oh talking about the spherical sampling reminded me of this paper by a guy i know
21:45.54 vasc "Spherical Fibonacci Point Sets for Illumination Integrals"
21:47.15 vasc it describes a way to generate meaningful points on a sphere for illumination integral computation. but its basically the same idea since you want to generate points on a sphere around the object to project the rays for the sphere sampling
21:48.07 vasc i think people usually just use a halton or sobol sequence but i don't know what would be appropriate in your case
21:48.54 *** join/#brlcad andrei_ (bc1ac0b6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.26.192.182)
21:51.47 brlcad vasc: that's very much a related idea, quasi monte-carlo is exactly what this is too
21:54.35 brlcad and exactly the same reasoning, faster / better convergence properties .. just not hemispherical for illumination
21:54.55 brlcad but spherical for volumetric estimation
21:55.18 dracarys983 brlcad: Should I read a paper and get an idea on quasirandom spherical sampling? Maybe we can talk to Daniel about this approach then?
21:56.35 brlcad dracarys983: no, it's still scope creep on your objectives
21:56.55 brlcad unnecessary unproven complexity (however promising and interesting it may be)
21:56.57 vasc yeah
21:56.58 Stragus You can often just precompute an uniform distribution on your sphere. Pick a random rotation matrix, sample X random points and every once in a while pick a new random rotation
21:57.16 vasc when the intervals of the sampling distribution are non-constant its hard to compute the actual volume
21:58.18 vasc maybe
21:58.22 brlcad dracarys983: I think the first option is the better way to go -- and you could even go with gqa as-is without hardly any changes really
21:58.58 vasc yeah that one seems like a good first approach
21:59.01 brlcad leaving custom views for later/never :)
21:59.44 vasc you could do the transform thing and sample things obliquely too i guess.
22:00.11 vasc like Stragus said
22:00.13 brlcad basically entails moving most of gqa's ray firing and book-keeping code into libanalyze, updating gqa and the analyze command to call libanalyze
22:00.46 dracarys983 brlcad: Okay. That sounds good.
22:00.57 brlcad gqa does a whole lot more than volume, so this may take you a while to sort through how to move the code
22:01.22 *** join/#brlcad kintel (~kintel@unaffiliated/kintel)
22:01.29 dracarys983 No problem.
22:01.56 brlcad just don't want to end up with a massive copy of gqa living in two places, so whatever you do should get refactored properly
22:03.05 dracarys983 brlcad: Right. Will take care about that.
22:03.43 dracarys983 brlcad: And oh, I'm done with the rt^3 changes to conform with recent changes in brlcad.
22:03.58 dracarys983 Patch will be ready by tomorrow. :)
22:04.02 vasc which reminds me i need to refactor some of the opencl stuff late on. i tried to not have external dependencies but too much code is duplicated right now.
22:04.33 vasc maybe the opencl should be all in the same file for the intersection routines as well.
22:04.48 vasc or i'll need some include
22:04.56 brlcad dracarys983: great
22:05.30 andrei_ hi, brlcad
22:05.48 brlcad vasc: yeah, suggest using the tree hierarchy so you could put common code in src/librt/primitives for example
22:06.28 brlcad want each primitive to remain independent / modular to the best we can
22:06.34 vasc yeah i'll do a cleanup patch afterwards. i think we have enough of a variety of implementation cases to figure out how to refactor now.
22:06.55 vasc well one of the issues with opencl is that you can't link it in the binary. at least not in opencl 1.2.
22:07.13 vasc so you have to either read a file or parse an in-memory string and pass it to the gpu compiler
22:07.31 vasc which is usually in the graphics driver
22:07.58 vasc so you end up with lots of little .cl files in an installation directory somewhere
22:08.46 vasc well
22:08.50 andrei_ brlcad: I've been looking over andrei_il 's project, I don't have as much time as a mentor but, I'm trying to help him out. Let me know when you got a few minutes, please.
22:08.55 vasc once these patches are in i'll do the refactoring
22:09.09 vasc otherwise its gonna clash
22:09.25 vasc during the merge
22:09.52 Notify 03BRL-CAD Wiki:Andrei.ilinca24 * 8435 /wiki/User:Andrei.ilinca24/logs: /* Coding Period */
22:27.41 Notify 03BRL-CAD Wiki:Konrado DJ * 8436 /wiki/User:Konrado_DJ/GSoc2015/logs: /* 27 MAY 2015 */
22:27.58 Notify 03BRL-CAD Wiki:Konrado DJ * 8437 /wiki/User:Konrado_DJ/GSoc2015/logs: /* 27 MAY 2015 */
22:34.43 brlcad vasc: *nod*
22:35.09 brlcad ending up with a dir of .cl files in the install tree will work just fine
22:36.03 brlcad can be called during prep or we can create a set of per-object callbacks called once on init and shutdown
22:37.14 brlcad can be sorted out later, those are non-priority issues compared to getting the pipeline to work at all ;)
23:16.58 vasc sure. but i don't like code to be too dirty. i usually refactor when things get too messy.
23:39.44 Notify 03BRL-CAD Wiki:Bhollister * 8438 /wiki/User:Bhollister/DevLogMay2015: /* Thursday, May 28, 2015 */

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